Questions about modes

[Ang3lus]

Well, i've learnt alot about modes, but everyone failed to explain to me when they are used, i know of one use that you can write a composition with them to get a certain type of sound, but let's say i want that sound inbetween a solo written on say C major, when can i use it ?

When the bass plays a F note for example i can play Lydian ? and when it plays D can i play dorian on it ?

Another question, except the half tone intervals which define the modes, what makes them major/minor ? the harmonization they get from the scale ?

[axeripper]

If you're in C major, you're already using the Modes. C major is the first (IONIAN) mode. To get different sounds, you have to learn to make the modes sound modal. You get that from a combination of the chords you use and the scale patterns you play over it.

Honestly, I don't always try to make a particular sound, it just sounds that way because of the rhythm/lead combination. You have to develop your ear, and that's the hard part for me.

Minor is the sixth note of the Major scale (relative minor [AEOLIAN Mode]). You can play any scale in that key over any notes in that key, but it's the combination thereof that makes the sound interesting. There are 7 modes and seven chords (M m m M M m A). Take guitar lessons man, don't be a cheapskate.

[GuitarStv]

OK, to answer your simple question first - the 3rd of a chord is what defines it as major or minor.

(I think of scales as intervals rather than notes, so if you use notes then in C, 1 = C, 2 = D, 3 = E, 4 = F, 5 = G, 6 = A, 7 = B)
major chord: 1 3 5
minor chord: 1 b3 5
maj 7th: 1 3 5 7
dom 7th: 1 3 5 b7
minor 7th: 1 b3 5 b7
major 6th: 1 3 5 6
minor 6th: 1 b3 5 6
etc. etc. see how all the minor chords have a b3?
Scales follow chords, so to determine if a scale/mode is minor just check the 3rd.

Next question!

Modes only make sense over a certain note, so you have to be very aware of the chords/bass lines that you're playing over. For example, if you're playing a simple progression (I - IV - V) in C and you stay in the C major scale through the whole thing you're actually playing C Ionian (over the I chord - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7), F Lydian (over the IV chord - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7), and G Mixolydian (over the V chord - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7). This can get VERY confusing VERY quickly. Rather than spend hours upon hours memorizing scale/modal patterns and trying to force them into my head, what I do to keep track of it all is a little different.

I like to improvise over a progression by first locating the chord tones that I'm playing over. Over the simple example that I previously used, I look at what tones the chords have in them:

I - IV - V in C
I = C major = CEG
IV = F major = FAC
V = G major = GBD

Now after learning the position of all of those notes on the fretboard, I can generally stumble through the solo and I won't be playing any bad notes. However, if I want to play somthing that sounds cool then I'll use extra notes. This is where stuff starts getting cool . . . I'll try out adding 7ths, 9ths, 4ths, 6ths, b7ths, b6ths, etc. to add some spice to the regular progression. Now let's look at the modes:

1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 Lydian
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Ionian
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 Mixolydian
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 Dorian
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Aeolian
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Phrygian
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 Locrian

If you end up liking the way that a b7 sounds against the major chord (1 3 5) you're playing on then you're playing in Mixolydian. If you like the way that a
4th and 7th sound when you're playing against a major chord then you're playing in Ionian. Does it matter what mode you're in? NO! You're just picking notes that sound good to you.

How do you know what notes to pick???
Well, different styles of music follow certain rules. For example . . . blues tunes often make use of certain combinations of notes. Over a major chord in a blues tune you might play these special notes:

b5 - this is the so called 'blues note'. The next time you're playing a pentatonic lick, throw in a couple of b5s and listen to how bluesy what you're playing sounds.
b7 - blues tunes make heavy use of the b7, so it's a good note to throw in there.
b3 - even though the chord you're playing over is major, playing a b3 and bending it up to the major third gives a nice bluesy feel.
6 - The 6th sounds sweet when you play it in the right context in a blues tune.

Other genres have special notes that are often thrown in as well. Maybe you're playing jazz over a more complicated tune:

Dm7 - Gm7 - Cm9 - Fmaj7

Dm7 - 1 b3 5 b7
Gm7 - 1 b3 5 b7
Cm9 - 1 b3 5 b7 b9
Fmaj7- 1 3 5 7

This one is even easier to play! The chords have already given you most of the colour notes that you need to solo!

I guess the point that I'm trying to show you is that it's not necessary to even think about modes. Just concentrate on sounds and notes and you'll use them automatically.

I love to learn and figure things out for myself, but I've never taken a guitar lesson in my life. If I'm wrong, or way off base here someone please point it out!

[liquidtension]

One of the best things I did to help me really hear the modes better was to sustain a low open E note, and then play a one-octave E major scale on the top three strings:

E----------------9-11-12-
B-------9-10-12----------
G-9-11-------------------
...1...2..3...4...5..6...7..(1)

And then do the same thing, but flatten the 7th to hear the Mixolydian sound. Try it with a #4, b3, b3 and b6, etc.

I think the key thing is to get familiar with how they sound in your head rather than being stuck with trying to work out the mechanics of it all.

And a lot depends on where you want to go with this sort of thing. I struggled with the application of modes for a long time. Modes were very intriguing because they seemed like a new creative avenue after feeling exhausted and even bored with playing a straight up major or minor scale over everything. I understood modes, but I couldn't seem to apply them. And when I could apply them, it seemed rather forced rather than natural.

I think you really start to see and hear the beauty of modes when you move away from strictly diatonic progressions and the whole classical approach.

I highly recommend picking up Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". You will learn something new each time you read through it. For me, the first thing I learned was to change my whole perspective and approach to music and theory. I think a lot of us get introduced to music theory from a classical perspective--that is, theory as more of a list of rules of what we can and cannot do (prescriptive). Levine's book really challenged me because it was more from a perspective of general rules, but an overall approach of "some have tried this, some have tried that". In some ways there is more work up front with that kind of perspective, but imo I feel like there is A LOT more freedom in the application.

Also, I think it is important to get a good variety of music to listen to that has modal applications. For example, if all you listen to is Steve Vai play a Lydian mode over an F major chord, you're ears will only have a very narrow understanding of modal application. Branch out and listen to someone like Mike Stern. He'll come across rather bluesy at first, and then he'll toss in a lick that makes you go "what was that?", especially if you are unfamiliar with that whole approach.

If you really want to explore the logical extreme of modes, pick up some Allan Holdsworth...but make sure to pick up some asprin as well, because he'll make your head hurt!

[Ang3lus]

WOW, guitarstv thank you !!
i am taking guitar lessons but my teacher is teaching me to rid of those technical aspects of remembering modes and fingerings etc, he's more into the "get them into your head, that way you can never forget them, then when you want to play it, you just know what you are gonna play rather than think, "oh this is a C ? in F lydian ? ok so this scale and that or should i use this?".

he is right, and i know, but to shorten the process i want to do a trial and error.

and btw axeripper, i am taking guitar lessons, i'm actually struggling very much because of the hectic schedule i have and will have for the next 4-5 years (making up for high school mistakes and trying to get into a good uni), but when i was in the army i gave up on guitar because lack of time and once i got discharged i said never again, i'm gonna do everything to keep it with me. i'm actually giving up a large portion of my social life for it. yes, quite scary, but i guess you guys would understand, got addictions to feed

edit: i was writing this jut as liquidtension posted.

thanks, you just now solved my problem to "how can i hear the modes straight up over a certain chord", hehe!

[Osensei]

I look at modes as patterns on the neck that help me stay in a key center that is compatible with whatever the current chord is. Its sorta like what a color palette is to a painter. The painter doesn't necessarily use every color on his palette. Neither does he use his colors in any particular order. And he certainly doesn't call his palette a painting. His concern is creating light or shadow to the degree necessary to render a specific detail, hue, contrast or effect.

The pursuit of modal concepts beyond this utilitarian application yields odd results. Check out Chick Corea and Return to Forever. Great band, but Chick's modal concepts fray the nerves after awhile. The sound overall is medieval and archaic. I don't dismiss modes altogether as they are a valuable teaching tool. But when you reach a point where you find your playing satisfying, I think you'll not even be concerned with modes.

Analyze the chords in the chord progression if you wanna get somewhere. First look at arpeggios. And make sure you study your arpeggios in all of the chords inversions. Not just 1,3,5 and so on. You know ... 1st inversion, 2nd inversion, 3rd and so on. Then explore the chords extensions. By the time you digest all of that you won't need any modes in order to put cool melodic ideas together. Then if you wanna look at modes you'll be able to see that certain modes fit certain chords because a certain "set" theory comes into play.

Look at this chord:

C7 - That's C E G Bb.

Now let's add extensions to our C7 chord.
C7b9 - C E G Bb Db
C9 - C E G Bb D
C+9 - C E G Bb D#
C 11 - C E G Bb D F
C +11 - C E G Bb D F#
C 13 - C E G Bb D F A

That's not even all of the extensions possible against a C7 chord. If you clump all of the notes from all these extensions together (along with the ones I left out) and put them in order you get:

CC#DD#DFF#GG#ABbC

This a set that consists of every note that is compatible with a C7 chord. Call out each note from this set as it relates to the C7 chord. Let's call the following list of notes our superset.

C - root
C#(Db) - b9th
D - 2nd or 9th
D# - min 3rd or +9th
E - 3rd
F - 4th or 11th
F# - dim 5th or +11
G - 5th
G#(Ab) - aug 5th or b13th
A - 6th or 13th
Bb - min 7th

You see each note has a relation to the base chord C7. Now if I wanna play some mode against C7 then I can pick a mode whose notes form a set that intersects with the superset above. Let's look at Bb melodic minor just for grins.

Mode or scale Bb mel. min ascending and descending
Bb C Db Eb F G A Bb Ab Gb F Eb Db C Bb

Which notes from the above scale intersect with our superset. I'll put parenthesis around them. In order they are:

(C) (C#/Db) D (D#/Eb) E (F) (F#/Gb) G (G#/Ab) (A) (Bb)

Now ask yourself, "What is the relation between each note in the scale and our C7 chord?".

Scale
-----
Bb - min 7th of C7
C - root of C7
Db - b9th of C7
Eb - +9 of C7
F - 11th of C7
G - 5th of C7
A - 13 th of C7
Ab - b13th of C7
Gb - b5th or +11th of C7

Get the idea? This means that you should be able to use the Bb mel. minor to create a melody vs C7. But not only that! Did you know you could also use Db mel. min as well as E mel. minor as well as a host of other modes/scales that you might have never thought of? You can discover them all based on chord analysis combined with set theory.

[Ang3lus]

wow
you just made me feel like the fretboard is so big, so many options
guess i'll have to go thru them all and find the ones i like the most
thanks again !

[OdgeUK]

Maybe think about starting really simply?

Play the Major (Ionian) scale against a chord progression built from the Major scale and listen to how that mode seems 'normal' to your ears. Then start making one of the notes in the scale flat or sharp and do some soloing. If you particulalry like the sound of one of these unusal notes, then use the theory to try and discover what mode you just did. Then try experimenting again by doing the same thing, but instead of making notes flat or sharp in the scale, start on a different note in the scale and try to play like that is the root note (even if the chord progression doesn't suggest that). This makes for some interesting experimentation but it's hard to come up with melodies without your ear trying to make you resolve your lines to the root of the chord progression.

Actually...I don't think that post made any sense (i don't know theory). But my point is, dont' attack it like a Math's problem. Just try to understand the implications of adding and removing notes to scales and how it can dramatically change the mood of the tune but still be 'correct' (if not a little off the wall) to your ears.

Eddie Van Halen plays kinda Modally. But he hasn't a clue what he is doing. He just likes certain notes against certain chords and those notes aren't always what the average ear would consider 'normal', leading to very unique lead phrasing.

[Kivitel]

Thing is this - modes aren't just flavors, or scales, or a way to see the fretboard, or anything else. They're everything, and everything relates to them. Just practice them, see how they relate to scales you're familiar with...they're really what helps you integrate all the other stuff you know about harmony and melody. Just don't see them as little scales you can solo over chords with, you know? Because the chord is made of modes. And the solo is made of chords. It's all the same stuff.

[Kivitel]

I look at modes as patterns on the neck that help me stay in a key center that is compatible with whatever the current chord is. Its sorta like what a color palette.. ....after awhile. The sound overall is medieval and ....... I don't dismiss modes altogether as ....sions....C9 -C E G Bb D
C+9 - ....C E G Bb D#....
C 11 - C E G ....all ....set as it relates to the C7 chord. Let's call the following, ascending ....and descending
Bb C Db Eb F G....
as a host of other m...odes/scales that you might have never thought of? You can discover them all based on chord analysis combined with set theory.

See, that's the problem with learning modes. Obviously all this stuff is correct and useful, but for some reason, explaining modes with words always seems to sound incredibly complex...which they are, if you think about them with your 'word mind'. Try as hard as you can to hear them, feel them with your hands.

The above explanation is really good, however, better than a lot of others I have seen.

[Kivitel]

Eddie Van Halen plays kinda Modally. But he hasn't a clue what he is doing. He just likes certain notes against certain chords and those notes aren't always what the average ear would consider 'normal', leading to very unique lead phrasing.

See, that's the key. If you start looking at jazz scales, you realize that there are about a billion of them, and they correspond to all the things people feel that sounds right when they improvise. So ultimately, you can't study the piles of scales and then 'figure out' what to play - you need to play what feels right, then see how it fits into some scale, be it a mode of the major scale, minor, some other conventional scale, or Locrian flat six major seventh major third flat eight tilted sixteen.

[OdgeUK]

Locrian flat six major seventh major third flat eight tilted sixteen.

With a suspended fourth?

LOL

[Osensei]

I'll try to simplify. Before modes, first know your chords. There is more to a chord than just the base 1, 3, 5 and 7.

Take Am7 - A C E G. Everyone knows that one right?

Now lets add a 9th to form Am9. Like so:
A C E G B

Now lets add and 11th.
A C E G B D

Finally a 13th
A C E G B D F#

Now our chord has 7 notes! Hey thats a scale! If I rearrange the notes and put them in order then I get something like:

A B C D E F# G

Nothing too special until you remember the harmonic and melodic minor can be added to your possibilities by raising the 6th and 7th. Add those in and we get

A B C D E F# G G#

And remember that the natural minor of A min has an F

A B C D E F F# G G#

Now you might think that F# and G# are accidentals. Or notes that are outside of the key of A min or it relative C maj, but you'd be mistaken. Those notes (F# and G#) are part of the chords extended harmony. F# is the 13th and is used to form the chord Am13. The G# is the maj 7th and it is used to form the chord AminMaj7. The F would transform our Amin chord to an F maj7. In fact every note of the scale we've created can be used to form some variation of an A min chord or one of its relatives (Fmaj7 or Cmaj7).

Furthermore, Amin is not the only chord that this scale will work with. If you pick this scale apart you find it has within it D F# A C. Hey thats a D7, You can figure out other chords that this scale might work with as well.

Try playing the notes in different orders against those chords and hear the sounds you can come up with.