Another God thread

[ratherdashing]

i have read some scholarly research that suggests that 'being morally good' is actually naturally selected / preferred by evolution and usefull in the development of way way early prehistoric society ... the short version is something like 'those who could get along with others were better able to live in the collective and spread their genes ... the ones that could not play well with others were set apart from the group and would be less able to do so'

You evolutionists and your crazy ideas!


Seriously, this does make a lot of sense.

[LJ King]

i have read some scholarly research that suggests that 'being morally good' is actually naturally selected / preferred by evolution and usefull in the development of way way early prehistoric society ... the short version is something like 'those who could get along with others were better able to live in the collective and spread their genes ... the ones that could not play well with others were set apart from the group and would be less able to do so'

There is much more historical proof that genocide can achieve the same result cheaper and faster.

Besides, genes do not transmit ideas and concepts. A human child is born tabula rasa.

[firebirdV]

There is much more historical proof that genocide can achieve the same result cheaper and faster.

Besides, genes do not transmit ideas and concepts. A human child is born tabula rasa.

I see your tabula rasa and raise you Leviathan




Mwa ha ha, let's see how your tabula rasa holds up against original sin






**Disclaimer** I have not actually read either of these works and don't know what I'm talking about

[big_black]

Besides, genes do not transmit ideas and concepts.

But certainly instinct does.

Over a period of time do ideas and concepts become instinctive to cognitive beings like humans? I don't know the answer I'm just putting it out there.

[Zhangliqun]

"You who prattle that morality is social and that man would need no morality on a desert island -- it is on a desert island that he would need it most. Let him try to claim, when there are no victims to pay for it, that a rock is a house, that sand is clothing, that food will drop into his mouth without cause or effort, that he will collect a harvest tomorrow by devouring his stock seed today -- and reality will wipe him out, as he deserves; reality will show him that life is a value to be bought and that thinking is the only coin noble enough to buy it."
John Galt

I think he's confusing survival with morality.

[Zhangliqun]

Over a period of time do ideas and concepts become instinctive to cognitive beings like humans? I don't know the answer I'm just putting it out there.

It's an interesting thought. I would say probably not at a primal level in the individual, but at a sociological level, probably.

[LJ King]

I think he's confusing survival with morality.

If your definition of morality has nothing to do with my survival...

Then what are you really preaching in the name of your God?

I can only think of two things - my death or my slavery.

What exactly are your values outside of blind faith and obedience to a ghost since obviously life is of no concern to you.

[FretFire]

If your definition of morality has nothing to do with my survival...

Morality and survival are not one in the same. Morality is more about "social survival" than literal survival.

[Builder018]

The Bible says that we are all sinners from birth, deserve punishment in hell for our sins, and because God is perfect and holy we as humans (who are not perfect and holy) can do nothing to pay for our sins to acquire eternal life in heaven. There is good news! Jesus Christ (God’s Son), who is perfect and holy, suffered death on the cross as our substitute and completely paid for all of our sins (past, present, and future). Jesus Christ’s resurrection demonstrates HIS victory over death that HE has won for us and that HIS payment for us was accepted in full by God. Here is some more good news…whoever has faith in Jesus Christ has eternal life in heaven, God gives us our faith in Jesus Christ as a free unconditional gift, and HE chooses us we do not choose HIM!

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 4: 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

[LJ King]

Morality and survival are not one in the same. Morality is more about "social survival" than literal survival.

Ok, let's assume you are correct.

If I lived my entire life on this deserted island, never encountering another man... would I be moral or immoral?

[Isismoon1405]

I don't believe in the Christian aspect of 'God'.. I'm wiccan so most Christians judge people like me as being devil worshipers and evil.. yeah, I've had people confront me about it saying I need to turn to Christ, quoting the Bible and telling me how evil I am for what I choose to believe in.. but no one is better than anyone else whether they choose to believe in something or nothing, so judging others is pointless unless you know exactly what is in their heart. A person can only judge themselves because they are the only one that knows what is in their heart.

It is all about what we have to do to survive.. we have to have some kind of self control to avoid harsh consequences and penalties. The fact is that Atheists believe that there is nothing after this life at all, we get one shot and that is it, so wouldn't you want to make the best of it in that case, and get as far in life as you can before it is all over? I think that is a good driving force, you know, you wouldn't want to spend your only chance wasting away in prison or living on the streets right?

[Zhangliqun]

If your definition of morality has nothing to do with my survival...

Then what are you really preaching in the name of your God? I can only think of two things - my death or my slavery.

Of course, life and death are integral to morality because obviously if you're dead, you can't engage in moral or immoral behavior on this earth any more.

But note that in the passage you quote, the writer mentions nothing about right and wrong or good and evil, he discusses only basic survival skills. There are retired military people who have all the skills you would ever need to survive on a desert island who have been hitmen and rapists and thieves and whatever other mayhem you can think of. So it would seem that my ability to build a house or plant crops or hunt has no effect on whether I might cheat my customers or download kiddie porn or beat my wife or talk a recovering alcoholic into going drinking with me.

Somehow you take me making a distinction between survival skills and moral behavior as me preaching that I want you to die or be a slave? Please explain.

What exactly are your values outside of blind faith and obedience to a ghost since obviously life is of no concern to you.

That none should perish but all would have eternal life.

[Zhangliqun]

The fact is that Atheists believe that there is nothing after this life at all, we get one shot and that is it, so wouldn't you want to make the best of it in that case, and get as far in life as you can before it is all over? I think that is a good driving force, you know, you wouldn't want to spend your only chance wasting away in prison or living on the streets right?

Under that scenario, yes, you get one shot. And it doesn't even count because it makes zero difference. You won't remember or care how far you got in life because there will be no you to remember it. While we are alive we are like sandcastles, some of which are are very tall and beautiful with great effort put into building them, others low, ugly and sloppy that indicate very little effort. But no matter the effort, they get the same reward, interment in the black depths of eternal oblivion when the tide rolls in.

It's as if we are hired by a farmer for a day and promised all kinds of wonderful things if we work hard that will be given to us during that day while the sun is up. And the farmer even delivers on some of them. Then the farmer explains that no matter how hard any of us works or how many wonderful awards we get or how many wonderful things he gives us during that day, when night comes he will shoot us all dead and bury us in a mass grave that no-one will ever find.

This farmer is the god of atheism, a god far more cruel than even the worst lies about the God of the bible. How anyone could be inspired to make the best of it for such a farmer baffles me.

[big_black]

It's as if we are hired by a farmer for a day and promised all kinds of wonderful things if we work hard that will be given to us during that day while the sun is up. And the farmer even delivers on some of them. Then the farmer explains that no matter how hard any of us works or how many wonderful awards we get or how many wonderful things he gives us during that day, when night comes he will shoot us all dead and bury us in a mass grave that no-one will ever find.

This farmer is the god of atheism, a god far more cruel than even the worst lies about the God of the bible. How anyone could be inspired to make the best of it for such a farmer baffles me.

I don't understand the analogy. What is it the atheist is promised?

[Forbes]

It's as if we are hired by a farmer for a day and promised all kinds of wonderful things if we work hard that will be given to us during that day while the sun is up. And the farmer even delivers on some of them. Then the farmer explains that no matter how hard any of us works or how many wonderful awards we get or how many wonderful things he gives us during that day, when night comes he will shoot us all dead and bury us in a mass grave that no-one will ever find.

This farmer is the god of atheism, a god far more cruel than even the worst lies about the God of the bible. How anyone could be inspired to make the best of it for such a farmer baffles me.

I'm not sure i really get this analogy, bu anyway i'd thought id just show you what inspiers me.

I work hard to eventually earn good money for my future family, i am nice to others because i know how it makes me happy when they are nice to me, i am inspired to make the most of every single day because there is a great feeling of accomplishment at the end of it, and anything difference would be a waste. I am happy because i do not do this for any God or master, i do it for me and i do it because i feel it's right, thats enough for me.

I dont understand where cruelty comes in, i'm not the one who believes if i make mistakes i will spend an eternity in hell.

[firebirdV]

It's as if we are hired by a farmer for a day and promised all kinds of wonderful things if we work hard that will be given to us during that day while the sun is up. And the farmer even delivers on some of them. Then the farmer explains that no matter how hard any of us works or how many wonderful awards we get or how many wonderful things he gives us during that day, when night comes he will shoot us all dead and bury us in a mass grave that no-one will ever find.

This farmer is the god of atheism, a god far more cruel than even the worst lies about the God of the bible. How anyone could be inspired to make the best of it for such a farmer baffles me.

This is a flawed analogy. Atheists aren't making the best of it for such a farmer, they are making the best of it for themselves and their fellow man. The farmer would be known as nature and things aren't always as you want them to be. I don't see how making the best of your circumstances is baffling while deciding to worship a god that will give you eternal happiness after you get shot by the farmer is as normal as can be.

[Isismoon1405]

Under that scenario, yes, you get one shot. And it doesn't even count because it makes zero difference. You won't remember or care how far you got in life because there will be no you to remember it. While we are alive we are like sandcastles, some of which are are very tall and beautiful with great effort put into building them, others low, ugly and sloppy that indicate very little effort. But no matter the effort, they get the same reward, interment in the black depths of eternal oblivion when the tide rolls in.

It's as if we are hired by a farmer for a day and promised all kinds of wonderful things if we work hard that will be given to us during that day while the sun is up. And the farmer even delivers on some of them. Then the farmer explains that no matter how hard any of us works or how many wonderful awards we get or how many wonderful things he gives us during that day, when night comes he will shoot us all dead and bury us in a mass grave that no-one will ever find.

This farmer is the god of atheism, a god far more cruel than even the worst lies about the God of the bible. How anyone could be inspired to make the best of it for such a farmer baffles me.

Yes, but you are still going to have to suffer consequences in THIS life, a normal person who doesn't want to suffer though life but wants to live life, isn't going to think it is ok to comit crimes and just do whatever they want to regardless because they may not have to pay for it in the "next life" but they will have to pay for it in this one...


and Atheists don't necessarily believe in no afterlife, Atheism only means the lack of belief in a deity. An Atheist does not believe in any God of any kind, that does not rule out the possibility of some form of heaven, ghosts, or even reincarnation. I guess it just depends on the person as to what they feel is right for them.

[LJ King]

Of course, life and death are integral to morality because obviously if you're dead, you can't engage in moral or immoral behavior on this earth any more.

But note that in the passage you quote, the writer mentions nothing about right and wrong or good and evil, he discusses only basic survival skills. There are retired military people who have all the skills you would ever need to survive on a desert island who have been hitmen and rapists and thieves and whatever other mayhem you can think of. So it would seem that my ability to build a house or plant crops or hunt has no effect on whether I might cheat my customers or download kiddie porn or beat my wife or talk a recovering alcoholic into going drinking with me.

Somehow you take me making a distinction between survival skills and moral behavior as me preaching that I want you to die or be a slave? Please explain.

That none should perish but all would have eternal life.

Even you agree - eternal life can only happen after death. Calling death an "eternal life" is at best a cruel joke.

You do not value life as much as death. Only after death do you believe you will get your "true reward". Life to you is not something worth living, as it may be to others present here - only something to be endured.

The writer of the passage I quoted knows that the aspects of "right and wrong or good and evil" are contained in the definition of morality. You cannot understand that because you only define morality to be some form of social etiquette. It is only in your definition that survival can be accomplished by any immoral person - assuming they had the proper training of course.

Of course. To accept your definition of morality of only being a "right and wrong" way of dealing with people, requires the same acceptance criteria to enter your religion.

Faith. Short circuit your mind and negate your ability to reason. Blindly accept the fairy tale and promise of eternal life and condemn all values of man as evil simply because it is claimed to be beyond your ability to understand. Accept a ghost as your MASTER and promise your eternal love for him as his slave. Denounce your self. Right and wrong is what the master says it is and your only obligation is to obey without question. Deny that your life has any value as the ghost has declared you evil before you got out of the starting gate and look forward to your death as your true reward.

Neither of us may be trained for survival on a deserted island. But while you are busy keeping your faith, praying to your ghost, and hoping for your death to come soon so you can experience your just reward - I will be busy using the evil you proclaim my reasoning ability to be, to survive as best I can while literally having to make true life and death decisions - in favor of LIFE.

[daemon barbeque]

Have you read 'On the Genealogy of Morals: A Polemic' by Friedrich Nietzsche....?

This book summarises my own views quite well, i recommend it.

Besides that, the issue is too complex to discuss here.

I am going to check it.Yeah it's too complex and i know how neutral you cna think ,so it will be a loooooooong discussion!