bumblebee capaciters

[darnright]

I notice in all the old (say 50's) Gibsons I see apart, they have bumblebee capaciters. Is there really a difference in sound than ceramic caps made now? If I put bumble bee caps in a newer guitar with SD pickups, would I really notice a difference in sound?

[Curly]

well, folks have gone to great lengths to get the Historics accurate in all details, including the electronics, which is why bumblebee caps have been re-created

however, the original bumblebees were considered very good caps in guitars

personally, I can hear the difference between a ceramic cap and a very affordable orange drop, and that's quite noticeable

I know that Mojo and Acme are carrying some pretty accurate vintage repro caps if you're looking for that

[darnright]

Thanks, I'm gonna try some. Just to see.

[ES350]

an affordable option might be the Sprague Black Beauties (ala 60's Gibsons), which go for a bit less than the BB's. There are also a few Grey Tigers out there (40s-50s Gibsons)...just about anything sounds better to me than ceramic discs.

[scottish]

worth noting that some people on hear, lewguitar and artie being the most prominent ones, say they dont notice a difference between ceramic caps and orange drops.

but that said, the sprague orange drops are so cheap anyways that its worth finding out for yourself.

[3th3r]

Might I refer you to ArtieToo's cap test:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/s...d.php?t=121862

If you are considering bumblebee repro caps, be aware that they are not all made the same. For example Luxe Guitars' is Paper-in-Oil and Gibson's is Polypropyline Film-and-Foil, and quite likely some others are metalized Polyester.

[crusty philtrum]

I measured bunch of bumble-bees on my capacitance meter and couldn't get any reading. I threaded some wire through a couple and installed them anyway. They didn't sound as buzzy as you may think....well, maybe they did for a couple of minutes, but then they went very quiet. But they do have some sting to them.

That was a week ago. Now i just need to get rid of the ants.....

[Pete Galati]

I measured bunch of bumble-bees on my capacitance meter and couldn't get any reading. I threaded some wire through a couple and installed them anyway. They didn't sound as buzzy as you may think....well, maybe they did for a couple of minutes, but then they went very quiet. But they do have some sting to them.

That was a week ago. Now i just need to get rid of the ants.....

Did you install a Honeycomb (Yeah, yeah, yeah) cover plate?

[crusty philtrum]

Hehehe, no, the only one i could find seemed to have gotten lodged in a tree and i got attacked by ....a bunch of buzzing flying capacitors !


i build amps, and i have listened to a lot of different types of caps when they are used in series with the signal, i.e. the guitar's signal passes through the cap to the next stage of the amp. In this application, better caps definitely equal better sound. (Bumble-bee's, penguin caps, alligator caps, kangaroo caps, etc). I always felt that in guitar tone circuits, the signal passing through the cap is the unwanted part, the part that is being shunted to ground, and therefore using high-quality caps in that application would be akin to gold-plating your trashcan. I have not really been able to convince myself one way or the other in listening tests.

....but.....i have Sprague Vitamin Q caps in most of my guitars anyway....hehe....just in case......i sleep better at night. But to be honest, those caps would probably do more for my tone by being used inside my amps. I do try to use lower voltage caps for the guitar though (200V), to avoid the guilt of wasting good high-voltage amp caps in the guitar and keep the high-voltage ones for the amps. I think a nice compromise is to get those ceramic discs out of there and replace them with something a bit better. Wima caps are great, though you usually need to exend the pcb length pins with some wire.

Judging by some of the soldering i have seen in pics and in guitars i get asked to fix up properly, some instruments can benefit much more by having some decent pots and switches installed with good soldering. The tone cap upgrades are probably the last in the priority list of jobs inside the control cavity, but of course are best installed at the same time as doing other work in there.

[ArtieToo]

Since I've been referenced twice, I should point out that an "update" is forthcoming. A good fellow from Hovland called me up the other day and we chatted for quite some time. He suggested that I try a few things:

1. I should reverse the leads of the cap.

2. I should "burn-in" the cap for 24 hours. (I think thats the time he said.)

3. I should listen to one cap long-term, get a feel for the sound, and then listen to the other equally as long. As opposed to instant A/B'ing.

He seemed like a decent and knowledgable fellow. I'm going to try "phase 2" of the test and report back.

Artie

[crusty philtrum]

Artie, what voltage caps are you planning to use? Are you planning on running serious voltages to burn them in?

I've always heard that the burn-in period for the kind of caps used in valve amps is about 80-100 hours. Most of the stuff i build doesn't stay here that long though, i rely on the owners telling me how things are going along the track.

Yes, there is an orientation for a lot of caps.....i think i read somewhere that the 'marked' end (band or stripe) should be orientated to the end of the circuit with the lower impedance.

[wolf5150]

I recently bought a NOS bumblebee .022 cap and fitted it to my PRS.

I have a WAH effect on my tone pot now, it's awesome.

I wasn't cheap but I've ordered another because it's just so special.

[ArtieToo]

Artie, what voltage caps are you planning to use? Are you planning on running serious voltages to burn them in?

I've always heard that the burn-in period for the kind of caps used in valve amps is about 80-100 hours. Most of the stuff i build doesn't stay here that long though, i rely on the owners telling me how things are going along the track.

Yes, there is an orientation for a lot of caps.....i think i read somewhere that the 'marked' end (band or stripe) should be orientated to the end of the circuit with the lower impedance.

Thats part of the problem. The one I have is a 1000V/.022uf. A guitar will typically generate maybe 300-500mv's. (Thats half a volt.) I'm going to burn it in using my pre-amp, so it will see maybe 1 to 8 volts max. I believe this may be the crux of the problem with using these things in guitar circuits. They never even start working.

I'd like to see Hovland make a guitar-specific cap, rated at maybe 3 to 10 volts.

As for the lead orientation, he said the "inner-foil" should be output or ground. I'll edit this post when I dig up my notes that says which way that is, but I believe I have it backwards. Again . . . I can't imagine it makes a difference at this voltage level.

[crusty philtrum]

Hey Artie

http://www.aikenamps.com/


....if you go to Aiken Amplifiers > 'Tech Info' > 'Technical Papers - Advanced' there is an article right at the bottom of the list on capacitor orientation.

There is one way you could easily burn in the cap......take out a coupling cap from a tube amp and install yours in there temporarily and leave the amp on for a while. Also it would be a good opportunity to hear the sonic difference it could make in that situation.......

You're correct about the tiny voltage inside the guitar, but you're talking of AC signal voltage.....those big caps usually used for coupling in tube circuits also serve another function....blocking high voltage DC....and of course there is NO DC whatsoever in a guitar. But i feel sure it is that DC voltage that 'forms' the cap during the burn-in period (hence all the debates about 'forming' the filter caps in power supplies when powering up a new amp from scratch or after having replaced the aforementioned caps).

I know that the legendary Ken Fischer took the attitude of 'try caps in both directions, use the orientation that sounds best to you'.

I fully agree with you comment about having Hovland or somebody make audiophile grade caps designed to work at very low voltages for guitars and basses, pedals and effects, etc. Even a 63 Volt mylar or ceramic disc seems like overkill in a guitar and i do wonder whether they could function much better if we were able to use them at somewhere much closer to their ratings.