Odd wiring question

[Diocletian]

I have an old Marlin strat which has a rails type humbucker, with two single coils. The 'bucker also has a switch to split the coils.
I think this should be in the Pickup lounge, but for some reason I can't post in there...?


I got some genuine Fender single coils and fitted them last night in place of the ones already there. I kept all the wiring the same, so everything would work as it already did, just with better quality pickups.

Now, everything works fine, EXCEPT position 4 (i.e. neck and middle pup combined). For some reason, in that position the sound becomes really thin and, well, "plinky" for want of a better word. The neck and middle on their own both sound nice and full, with nice sustain, so I'm surprised they sound so poor in combination.

Anyone got any ideas why this would be happening? Was I supposed to turn the middle pup the other way round (I assumed they were both supposed to fit with the "pointy bit" on the base facing towards the bridge).

[Fikealox]

I don't think turning the pickup around would help. To me, it sounds like you've either accidentally put the two pickups out of phase, or like you have a physical or wiring problem with the switch. I'd check the switch out with a multimeter, then resolder all the relevant connections for that signal path as a first step in faultfinding.

[NoOnesFang13]

definatly sounds like its out of phase, flip the leads

[KeeperOS]

+1 definitely sounds out of phase.

Did you make sure you bought a Reverse Wound, Reverse Polarity single for the middle?
If not then that's the reason for your problems...

[Diocletian]

+1 definitely sounds out of phase.

Did you make sure you bought a Reverse Wound, Reverse Polarity single for the middle?
If not then that's the reason for your problems...

I bought a set of three pups that came straight out of a USA strat, so I assumed they were all ready to go.

NoOnesFang, when you say, "flip the leads" which ones do you mean?

Thanks guys!

[KeeperOS]

OK, if you got them as stock from a guitar that was NOT some kind of a Vintage/Historic/whatever re-creation but a standard line then you should have two that are normal wound/normal polarity and one that is reverse wound/reverse polarity against the other two. That one should go in the middle.

If one of the three is RW/RP and the Middle/Bridge position works as it should (unlike how the Neck/Middle does) then there's a good chance you put the RW/RP pickup in the bridge...

First check to make sure that all three pickups are at the position they were supposed to be.

Now, about reversing the leads he meant to wire the two middle-pickup's wires backwards i.e. wire the black (or hot) lead where the white (or ground) one is and the white where the black was. This will take care of the "Reverse Wound" part.
However, again, make sure that all three pickups are at the position they were supposed to be before anything else...

[Diocletian]

OK, if you got them as stock from a guitar that was NOT some kind of a Vintage/Historic/whatever re-creation but a standard line then you should have two that are normal wound/normal polarity and one that is reverse wound/reverse polarity against the other two. That one should go in the middle.

If one of the three is RW/RP and the Middle/Bridge position works as it should (unlike how the Neck/Middle does) then there's a good chance you put the RW/RP pickup in the bridge...

First check to make sure that all three pickups are at the position they were supposed to be.

Now, about reversing the leads he meant to wire the two middle-pickup's wires backwards i.e. wire the black (or hot) lead where the white (or ground) one is and the white where the black was. This will take care of the "Reverse Wound" part.
However, again, make sure that all three pickups are at the position they were supposed to be before anything else...

OK I think I get you. I left the original humbucker in place remember, only changed out (so far anyway) the neck and middle pups. Bearing in mind position 2 sounds okay, I'd guess that means the middle pup is wired fine, so it must be the neck pickup that I need to switch the wires on...?
That make sense?

I have no way of knowing which pickup was for which position, other than a post-it note the seller sent me which told me the colour codings for the wires. I assume he gave me an accurate description, but it's possible I put the wrong pickup in the wrong place if he didn't!
Anyone know what colour wires match with which pup position on standard Fender pickups?

[Fikealox]

These two pics'll let you use Seymour Duncan diagrams if you like:




Seymour Duncan diagrams are found here: http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/

Otherwise, you can use any of the HSS diagrams here (remember, these use the Fender colours):

http://www.guitarelectronics.com/cat...asterdiagrams/

If you find after wiring it up that the neck/middle split is noise cancelling and the humbucker (in split coil mode)/middle split isn't, then you might want to change the middle and neck pickups around. If the condition is anything else, it means either you have it right (both split positions are hum cancelling) or you don't have a RWRP pickup (neither position is hum cancelling).

[KeeperOS]

No, if the bridge is a humbucker then the reverse wound thing wouldn't matter since there are two coils reverse-wound to each other. Only the reverse polarity would matter, I think...

OK, I was looking at my (MiM) Strat's stock pickguard and it seems the white wire is the hot (going to the 5-way) and the black is the ground (going to the back of the volume pot).

First try reversing those two wires on the middle pickup ALONE and see what happens.
Check again on ALL 5 positions.

We'll take it from there...

[Sporky McGuffin]

The position of the RW/RP pickup won't do this. That'll only affect the hum cancellation. This is a polarity issue.

If the only position that doesn't work is neck & middle together, swap over the two wires from the neck pickup and you're good to go.

[Fikealox]

I'm not sure why you guys are worrying about RWRP so much... RWRP has nothing to do with the fault if the fault is phase inversion. It only has to do with hum cancelling in positions 2 and 4. Afterall, RWRP pickups are wired in exactly the same as normal pickups. Keeper's last post doesn't make sense to me, because the "Reverse Polarity" part of RWRP doesn't have anything to do with which way you connect up the wires. It's just the magnet's polarity.

The way RWRP pickups work is that they magnetically invert the signal, then electrically invert it back again (so it is back to normal), while the noise (hum) is only inverted electrically. That way, when you are in split positions with a normal pickup, the noise from each pickup (which will be more or less the same, since it's from common radiated sources) cancels out, while the signal from each pickup doesn't cancel.

Since the humbucker (unsplit) sounds fine combined with the middle, that suggests their signals are in phase. Swapping the middle pickup's wires makes no sense, because it will put it out of phase with the bridge (even while putting it in phase with the neck).

If you swap the neck pickup's leads, it'll put it in phase with the middle, and solve your problem. If it doesn't, then your problem was never a phase inversion.

If it does sound better, that's when you should start thinking about RWRP. You'll be able to tell from which positions are hum-cancelling whether you have the RWRP in the middle or not (if indeed you have one at all). It doesn't make sense to worry about RWRP before you've fixed your fault... any suggestion to the contrary is leading you down the garden path...

[KeeperOS]

Ahh, putting it simply, since the bridge is a bucker the reverse wound part wouldn't matter at all. I said *MAYBE* the reverse polarity would. Not sure though.

About why bother, well, maybe because in the future he might want to put a SC in the bridge too.

I say make it right the first time and save yourself from future trouble.

[Fikealox]

Yeah, I see what you were saying, and I agree that he should try to put the RWRP in the middle if he has one (since he has a coil-split switch for the humbucker). It just doesn't make a difference as far as phase inversion (the likely cause of his fault) goes. He's got to fix that before he worries about the RWRP, and the best way to fix it is by swapping the leads of the neck, not the middle. Swapping the leads of the middle would just invert the phase of the middle pickup relative to both other pickups, fixing position 4, but making position 2 as bad as position 4 is now.

[Diocletian]

Excellent, thanks to all you guys for the help! I'll give it a go swapping the neck pup wiring.
Keeper is exactly right, in that I WILL be fitting a single coil to the bridge, replacing the humbucker. Just as soon as I can find a way to do it - looking at options just now, but they seem stupidly expensive....

Thanks again guys, I'll let you know how it turns out in case anyone else ever has the same issue.

[KeeperOS]

Cool man, tell us how it goes

[Porto Leone]

yeah, I See What You Were Saying, And I Agree That He Should Try To Put The Rwrp In The Middle If He Has One (since He Has A Coil-split Switch For The Humbucker). It Just Doesn't Make A Difference As Far As Phase Inversion (the Likely Cause Of His Fault) Goes. He's Got To Fix That Before He Worries About The Rwrp, And The Best Way To Fix It Is By Swapping The Leads Of The Neck, Not The Middle. Swapping The Leads Of The Middle Would Just Invert The Phase Of The Middle Pickup Relative To Both Other Pickups, Fixing Position 4, But Making Position 2 As Bad As Position 4 Is Now.

++1!

[Almost Never]

I don't mean to piggyback on this thread, but the forum won't let me post a new topic (I thought it was an error with Firefox, but IE won't do it, either), so here's my question:

I've got an old Kay Vanguard I'm updating (yeah, vintage guitar, but I wanna play it, not sell it or sit around and stare at it).

The bridge needs replaced (putting a hardtail from a '51 on it) and the electronics need grounded. There's no route from the cavity to the bridge, so I'd have to drill one, which I don't wanna do if I don't have to. Any idea how to ground it to itself? I was told this is possible, and safer. Single pickup (two conductor), volume, tone, and jack. Any ideas?

[Almost Never]

No one, still?

[KeeperOS]

Sorry man, not sure. However if this guitar is even semi-valuable I'd take it to a respectable luthier and not try to do it by myself. One wrong move and you may be talking about a lot of money down the drain (and if not now, in the not-so-distant future).

Also, about the forum not letting to post a new thread, I found refreshing the cache to help sometimes (in Firefox it's Ctrl+F5)

[Fikealox]

The idea of earthing something to itself makes no sense to me, man. If you're going to earth the bridge you're going to have to connect a wire from it to another earthed component within your electronics cavity, which is in turn earthed to the output jack... there's just no way around it that makes sense.

Apparently some vintage guitars used metal enclosures for the components that eliminated the need for a shielded earth wire, so if your Vanguard has no route or hole drilled, maybe it was one of those. Check heaps carefully for drilled holes, though, as they're very small and not hard to miss - and it might be in the bottom of one of the post holes (one of the best places to put it).