THE modern American sports/muscle car

[matt99camero]

Shelby GT500

Ford GT

Corvette ZR1

Corvette Z06

2009 Camaro

2008 Dodge Challenger

Dodge Charger SRT8

Dodge Viper SRT10

Dodge Viper ACR

Ultimate Aero

[danglybanger]

...there's already a thread I still think the old school 90s ZR1 is full of win, and it's arguably just as modern as a lot of the cars above in terms of the technology it employed...

Arguably I'd call the Challenger/arger, Camaro, Stang etc. muscle cars, but that's probably not the point of this thread... As the Solstice/Sky are both closer to actual sports cars and in the company I mean, who would actually pick one of those. Besides, the Euro/Japanese have plenty of cars that are considered 2+2 sports cars (and yet not muscle cars...)

I'd take a Camaro first, but the ZR1 Vette is most likely the "best".

[matt99camero]

I knew there was the classic american car thread, but I wanted to keep this one the cars of today, those made in the last 3-4 years. A lot of these cars have undergone some major changes recently.

[mediumpimpin]

Matt you're my hero. You know that the LSX engines rule, hardcore.


Why are you posting car threads here and not ls1tech? I'm a diehard ls fan and I know no-one here appreciates ls like they deserve. Vipers are the modern shelby equiv, but they lack the raw bawllss of the ls platform.

[JOLLY]

I'm not sure if I like that 2009 Camaro or not. I'm probably about 70/30 on liking it. I haven't liked the looks of the new Corvette's in the past couple of years or so. I like the looks of that Dodge Challenger. It still has that old school look to it, but with a modern twist so to speak. I've never even seen one of those Ultimate Aero's before. That's totally badass!! I like that Ford GT too. It somewhat reminds me of the "Coyote" that was in the 80's show Hardcastle & McCormick. Anyways, how much do the Ford GT and the Ultimite Euro cost? I bet they're a pretty penny.

[PFDarkside]

I've been out of the car world for a few years, what's the new ZR-1 and how does it compare to the Z06?

I've got my LS1 sitting outside.

[danglybanger]

Oddly I found the car hobby utterly boring for the last 5 or so years... until the ZR1 and the GTR made appearances and made things fun to watch again... I couldn't stomach watching stupid German luxobarges, de-souled Ferraris, Lambos and Porsches (aren't those just marketing companies anyway now?), brands dying by acquisition (mostly by the germans), and Detroit dumbing down cars and claiming that they were now "retro" to reflect a bygone era where you could be incompetent and still have things be rosy (IE putting out unethical dinosaurs like the new Mustang and just about any Chrysler product)...

Sorry, I'm in a "talkative" mood tonight.

Anyway, the ZR1 is supercharged, lightened etc... gets the best time ever on the Ring, fastest Corvette ever etc. etc....

As for the Camaro's design, it actually looks better than early Camaros IMO... It's not so much retro as it is stealth fighter. Other retro designs dumb down details and make things look fat, the new Camaro at least doesn't LOOK like that...

Too bad they took the David Hasselhoff lightbar (on the prototypes) off of the finished product.

[matt99camero]

The Ultimate Aero is now the fastest production car ever made, it beat the Bugatti Veryon in top speed. I think it costs around a cool million.

The ZR1 Vette has 600 and something horsepower with a bunch of other goodies. It is the first production Vette to use a supercharger.

[gilles27]

interesting car the Aero, outrageous power/weight ratio. Bugatti still has it on 0-100-0 and 0-250 times but not much in it.
Also, the Veyron is limited to 253mph as VW wanted the car to be able to consistanly and safely achieve the speed without demanding much of the driver. Hell of a thing really. Unlimited, i doubt it would do much more tho as it isn't flat bottomed like the Aero. This helps the Aero achieve a much better drag co-efficient but sacrifices the aerodynamic 'ground effect' the Bugatti employs in order to generate downforce (even in slippery mode).
Bugatti's fastest officially timed Norschleife run was 7.40, done by a German magazine (no VW test times were recorded). anyone know if the Aero has been round there?

[mediumpimpin]

I'm pretty sure the aero hasn't lapped the ring, but I doubt it would post up a good time. A lot of those super cars just aren't good at lapping the ring, they've got too much power to go all out. I heard the porsche driver tried to back out of doing the lap with the carrera gt cuz he thought he'd die. I know the ring is the new benchmark, but I don't think this trend will continue. That track is flat out dangerous and someone will die trying to put up a fast lap one of these days.

As far as modern american cars go, I'm a huge fan of the ZR1. That car is a real monster. 638HP with a torque curve that makes the viper v10 look like a peaky 4 banger equals fast. The ls9 in the vette was said to be tested at 800hp but severely detuned to help out with intercooling, it's got a tiny intercooler in the intake manifold. I think we'll see a buncha rich guys taking the supercharger off and converting it to turbo much like the ford gts.

[gilles27]

I know the ring is the new benchmark, but I don't think this trend will continue. That track is flat out dangerous and someone will die trying to put up a fast lap one of these days.

yeh that's why most of the companys testing there don't allow the drivers to time themselves. most of it is for endurance stuff where they run a programme of lapping the ring for months on end at speed with one car virtually non stop (driver changes obviously) in order to see the affects of prolonged abuse to the car's suspension and chasis ect. the ring is the best place for this as many cars can test at once and there are huge surface variations in terms of bumps, pitch, camber and jumps.

as for the Carrera GT, i'm suprised to hear that as it was conceived originally as a LeMans entrant. I would have thought it would shine on the twistys.

I love the culture in the US of taking already existing models and giving them WAY to much power like the calloway corvettes etc. Not something that get's much respect in coverage in europe, the preference seems to be for thoroughbreds. the British press hasn't even mentioned the Aero. you'd think they'd be interested in the world's fastest production car...

[PFDarkside]

I love the culture in the US of taking already existing models and giving them WAY to much power like the calloway corvettes etc. Not something that get's much respect in coverage in europe, the preference seems to be for thoroughbreds. the British press hasn't even mentioned the Aero. you'd think they'd be interested in the world's fastest production car...

Haha, that is the American way. Those Vipers were obnoxious back in the day. Mercedes kind of does it with the AMG models.

[gilles27]

yeh germany seems to be the exception with Mercs getting tuned by Brabus and AMG (AMG is in-house really, kinda like BMW's M division), BMW by Alpina, Porsche by RUF. Other countries in europe have similar stuff but the go for it in a way bigger way in Germany.

I find it difficult to get excited about most cars made after about 1973 (bloody safety bumpers!)

[matt99camero]

I am going to post my own thoughts on the cars in my own thread. Remember these are only my opinions.

Mustang Shelby GT500 - they put a 500hp engine in a car meant for 300hp. It's big, a little on the chubby side, and sits to high up which makes for to much body roll. Much better off to buy a base GT and supercharge/turbocharge it yourself if your into the Stang thing.

Ford GT - Very exotic looking for a American car, but also very expensive. Absolutly no storage area, so this is not going to be a daily driver. Fast, handles good, overall fits the image of the American Super Car.

Corvette ZR1 - An absolute beast, very fast, handles great. But for the first time the Corvette has a $100k price tag, and dealers are marking them up even more than MSRP. I'm ready to see how well these things sell, but since there is a limited supply probably only the very rich will be able to get their hands on one.

Corvette Z06 - Probably the best bang for the buck of the bunch. Still expensive but cheaper than most in the "supercar" category. Has decent interior, comfortable enough that it can be driven everyday, then taken to the track and beating most cars there.

2009 Camaro - New retro design is questionable, some love it some hate it. I don't like it that much. It is a heavy car with a big motor. It's performance numbers are not any better than the last generation of the Camaro, but they had smaller engines and 50hp less. I'm curious to see how well this one will sell also.

New Dodge Challenger - Most seem to like it as it seems to stay more true to the original than the other "retro" cars today. Like the Camaro, it is a very heavy car, 4000lbs+. It has over 400hp but the weight really hurts it's performance. Cars with less hp and less weight will leave it behind. But it's more of a modern muscle car than sports car. I'm sure guys who used to own the original will want to relive their youth and buy these things.

Dodge Charger SRT8 - Uses the same engine as the new Challenger, and again, it is hurt buy its weight. More for the person who wants a performance car but needs to put a babyseat in the back.

Dodge Viper SRT10 - Very fast, 600hp, handles great. Very stiff ride, interior is rather bland, gets very hot inside the car and is not very comfortable to ride in. It is a weekend car only, and is very pricey.

Dodge Viper ACR - An SRT10 build for the track. Thats probably the only place you will see one.

Ultimate Aero - Fastest production car in the world. Very limited production, very expensive. Most of us will probably never see one in person. Only for the very, very rich and only a car that would be driven a couple times a year.

[danglybanger]

...here's a brief breakdown of both domestic and foreign competition...

from jalopnik.

[3'scompany]

I don't know what in the hell American car companies are thinking. The Challenger, Charger and Camaro are all bloated, fat pieces of crap as far as I'm concerned. There is no reason a "muscle" or "sporty" car should be anything over 3500lbs. But then again, we have to remember that most Americans' idea of motorsports are either left-turn-only ovals or drag strips so it is no wonder that these companies disregard the fact that weight kills handling (the one exception being the GTR as it is portly but somehow still handles well). Lets not forget that weight absolutely kills mpg and these $30-40K cars aren't like the ferraris and Lambos that have owners who couldn't care less about the price of fuel. And while the mustang is lighter than these other "pony" cars, it is still a disaster AFAIC given that they aren't putting an IRS in it.

And don't even get me started about the new vettes. Why on earth do you want more power in than the Z06? Everything I have read about the current Z06 has said, "Yes it is fast, but it is extremely hard to drive so in this car." I've not read one article that says it inspires even the most remote amount of confidence in the twisties due to its immense supply of torque... which is unusable in all but a straight line. I can't imagine how many ZR1s will be posted on wrecked exotics. Granted, I've never liked vettes, I just think the current batch of "super vettes" are ridiculous.

Now, the only two cars on that list I'd like to have are the Ford GT and the Viper ACR. They are the most impractical of the group, but you don't buy a sports car for practicality. Basically, the ACR is one of the most aggressive and best performing sports cars you can put on the street (yes, they pull 1.1 g's on the skid pad) though you'll probably pee blood after riding in one. And the GT is just cool looking, plus a performer to boot.

[matt99camero]

I didn't realize the Viper was so far back in it's lap time. But it also has no traction control or stability management on the car.

[Smilemon]

Coming from Alaska I have a lot of respect for the Dodge Charger. It's a sporty car, with all wheel drive. It got my vote because it can kick ass in the winter, as opposed to a mustang or corvette which gets parked for 8 months. I don't really like the look of the Charger. Its totally American if you know what I mean, sorta looks like a football player... I think the best looking car on your list is the Ford GT but It wouldn't do so great up here.

[matt99camero]

Which Chargers are you refering to? They were only ever offered in RWD.

[Smilemon]

2007 Dodge Charger R/T AWD. There are a bunch of them in Fairbanks. With the Hemi engine.