Modeling pre's into Tube Power Sections

[Gearjoneser]

A few days ago, I discovered a beautiful thing. I have a Vox AD60 modeling head as my practice rig. I have it plugged into a Marshall Jubilee 4-12, but also decided to use the AD-60's preamp out to feed the FX return of my Matchless Chieftain. What I ended up with was a Jubilees speakers and my Matchless's power section and speakers. This is the future of modeling in my opinion. Modeling amps have the perfect preamp section. Tube amps have the perfect power section. It's being perfected as we speak, but there are benefits to SS and all tube. Why not take the benefits of SS and make the most of them, via tube power? Line 6 knows it, you know it, and I know it. The amps of the future, in a perfect world, will be something similar to a Line 6 Vetta II, being fed into something like a VHT tube power section. They're trying to make them compatible now, but with a few more years of SS/tube interface, we'll have the ultimate amp. I'm sure of it.

[some_dude]

There's a few bands that've been doing that already (Slipknot comes to mind with a POD Pro/Mesa 2:90 setup). Some people swear by it, and I admit it's an excellent idea. If figure the natural inefficancy of the tube power section fills in the gaps left by a digital moddelers low sampling rate.

Marshall's had it ass backwards for years.

[rocksoldier]

But whats the reason to even use a ss preamp if you gonna use a tube power amp anyway?
It´s sure great if u want to have a lot of tones avaible, but otherwise: why not just go full tube?
I thought the point of ss amps was that it was cheaper and more reliable, but what´s the advantages of ss pre+ tube power?

[OUTLAW1969]

.................. but what´s the advantages of ss pre+ tube power?

I am gonna go out on a limb and say variety/1 stop shopping meets tone.


Happy medium, I suppose. Best of both worlds.

[some_dude]

But whats the reason to even use a ss preamp if you gonna use a tube power amp anyway?
It´s sure great if u want to have a lot of tones avaible, but otherwise: why not just go full tube?
I thought the point of ss amps was that it was cheaper and more reliable, but what´s the advantages of ss pre+ tube power?

If you're using a digital modelling pre, it's the ability to have a lot of tones available. Other than that, there really isn't many advantages, other than cost.

[ArtieToo]

It´s sure great if u want to have a lot of tones avaible, . . .

I think you just answered your own question.

I believe SS has some other advantages too. I'm not positive, but I believe SS has a tendency to lower noise and less susceptibility to hum, due to lower power supply voltages.

Its also possible that SS amps have a slight advantage as far as producing "clean" tones from a guitar. If a guitar/pickup combination has a great clean tone, SS may pass that through better than tube.

This is somewhat theoretical on my part, since I don't have a tube amp.

[BillG3]

There is a combo unit built especially with modeling preamps (specifically the line 6 pod's but not limited to them)) called the Atomic Amp Reactor 112. It is an 18-watt EL-84 based power amp combo with 1 12" speaker.

I have not tried it but it seems to generate some good reviews.

[aleclee]

If you're using a digital modelling pre, it's the ability to have a lot of tones available. Other than that, there really isn't many advantages, other than cost.

I don't think there's much if any cost advantage to be had. Parts-wise, those beefy power and output transformers account for most of the cost of a tube amp. Unless there's a ton of labor savings to be had using a DMA front end, I don't know how that sort of hybrid is gonna be cheaper than a two or even three channel tube amp. That might be why most hybrids have tube preamps feeding SS power sections.

That said, a tube power section would probably address my biggest tonal gripe about DMAs. I haven't yet come across a DMA that sparkled like a good tube amp and I've never liked their edge-of-distortion tones, either.

Even so, it'll be a long time before I own another DMA (I had a Line 6 for two years). My AX2 had gremlins that even a trip to the factory couldn't solve. Though tube amps require more maintenance than SS amps, when something goes wrong in a tube amp, you're probably a fuse and a fresh tube away from being up and running. If something craps out in a SS amp, you're pretty well hosed. The amp is gonna spend some time in a tech's shop and the repair is probably gonna cost you a lot more than a set of power tubes.

Yeah, I'll admit I have my biases against DMAs and, to a lesser extent, SS amps. At least the prejudice comes from personal experience and not pure snobbery.

[aleclee]

Its also possible that SS amps have a slight advantage as far as producing "clean" tones from a guitar. If a guitar/pickup combination has a great clean tone, SS may pass that through better than tube.

SS amps are definitely higher fidelity than tube amps but that doesn't mean their tone is more pleasant. Even clean, guitar amps are more about changing the signal's timbre than simply reproducing it.

I've had many discussions with my Dad (a retired electrical engineer who lived through the solid state revolution) about audio electronics and he often expresses remorse about how engineers of the time let oscilliscopes and spec sheets, not their ears, tell them what sounded good. If high fidelity was the end-all of pleasant tonality, we'd probably prefer EMGs.

[DeadSkinSlayer3]

http://www.atomicamps.com

Someones already a step ahead

It sounds like a great idea, and I've concidered it before, but when I run my Behringer V-Amp2 through my XXX's power section, it sounds small, weak, and compressed.

[TwilightOdyssey]

I've tried this before with my Roland VG88 going into my Marshal EL 34 100/100.
The thing with modelling preamps is that after spending hours coming up with the ultimate direct to board tone, you then have to basically re-do all your work because there are so many new factors involved: the tone of the power amp, the actual speaker cab and its sound, cables, etc.
Besides the fact there isn't a tone on my VG88 I can't get with any of my other rigs.
For me, it's easier to use one of my other rigs, and then use the VG88 for its intended purpose (in my life, anyway): track solos direct.

[ArtieToo]

SS amps are definitely higher fidelity than tube amps but that doesn't mean their tone is more pleasant. Even clean, guitar amps are more about changing the signal's timbre than simply reproducing it.

I've had many discussions with my Dad (a retired electrical engineer who lived through the solid state revolution) about audio electronics and he often expresses remorse about how engineers of the time let oscilliscopes and spec sheets, not their ears, tell them what sounded good. If high fidelity was the end-all of pleasant tonality, we'd probably prefer EMGs.

I agree with this completely.

I was thinking in terms of my J-Station. It does all the "signal shaping" within itself, and then I feed the output to a nice old Crown DC150A. (via mixing board). In that context, the SS may have advantages over feeding to a tube.

[Jeff_H]

I actually think that the best way to run a modeling pre-amp is to have it going thru the cleanest possible power amplifier and speakers. The modeling pre-amp is providing all of the tone, in many cases replicating the pre and power sections of annother amp. By "coloring" that sound with tubes and speakers you are changing the basic nature of the "patch" you're using.

With that said, I'm quite sure it's possible, as GJ has done, to find certain combinations that work quite well. If you are creating your own tone, then I think this can work well, adding life, depth, and warmth to sounds as only tubes can. However, if you want to be able to switch from a model of a Dual Rec to a Marshall Plexi to a Fender Twin, I again think that tubes and speakers in general will "color" these too much, and change the nature of the tone.

Now, a super clean tube power amp, with a ton of clean headroom, combined with speakers such as those found in PA systems designed to simply and transparently reproduce sound could be the best of both worlds.

[some_dude]

I don't think there's much if any cost advantage to be had. Parts-wise, those beefy power and output transformers account for most of the cost of a tube amp. Unless there's a ton of labor savings to be had using a DMA front end, I don't know how that sort of hybrid is gonna be cheaper than a two or even three channel tube amp. That might be why most hybrids have tube preamps feeding SS power sections.

I was thinking more along the lines of rack gear. For instance, a Line6 POD Pro is much cheaper than a Mesa TriAxis.

Oddly enough, haven't people been doing this thing for years using an ADA preamp into a Mesa power amp?

[ArtieToo]

Now, a super clean tube power amp, with a ton of clean headroom, combined with speakers such as those found in PA systems designed to simply and transparently reproduce sound could be the best of both worlds.

Yup . . . as a matter of fact, my latest GAS is for a Mesa 20/20 to take the place of the Crown. I suspect that would be . . . suwwweeeet!

[InstituteOfNoise]

gearjoneser... that's pretty much what the Atomic Amp does. I have 2 Atomics setup in stereo at my studio most of the time. My offer still stands if ya want to come by and try them sometime..

[Hellion]

I've come under fire for saying this before, but I stand by my opinion. Once you start processing (be that with a modeling processor such as a POD or SansAmp or Roland or Behringer or what have you, or with a processor like an A.R.T. or Digitech) the guitar sound, the end stage amplification doesn't make any difference. I agree with aleclee, the purpose of a modeling amp is to affect and shape the tone. A SS amp reproduces this just fine at a higher volume.

[Gearjoneser]

I should come by sometime, Institute. I'm curious about those Reactors, because I'm sure they addressed the proper EQ, to make the models reproduce nicely. Most amps FX returns still sound more midrangey in comparison to a real flat and loud power amp.
The Reactor must have a PA like EQ curve.

[Benjy_26]

I've been doing this for years with a Peavey tube power amp and my Boss GT-6 into an old Vox 2x12 cab. I use it mainy when playing a lot of cover songs or need a wide range of tones. It's loud, sounds great, and it allows me to go from funk style cleans all the way up to modern metal chunk just by switching a patch.

All for under a grand.

[y2stevo]

I've come under fire for saying this before, but I stand by my opinion. Once you start processing (be that with a modeling processor such as a POD or SansAmp or Roland or Behringer or what have you, or with a processor like an A.R.T. or Digitech) the guitar sound, the end stage amplification doesn't make any difference. I agree with aleclee, the purpose of a modeling amp is to affect and shape the tone. A SS amp reproduces this just fine at a higher volume.

You may understand somepart of electronics that i don't so correct me if im wrong, but wouldn't even using a different type of cable anywhere in that signal chain alter the tone somewhat, and if you used different amplifier wouldn't that not alter it significantly? i.e using a marshall 50/50 as power amp then switching to a 2000watt PA amplifier?? there's obviously going to be different "colours"added to the tone from the marshall, then different ones added by the PA amp no?