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Thread: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

  1. #121
    Raining PunLord LesStrat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by krankguitarist View Post
    OK, Les, this seems to be an error of language. "Mental Illness" is a broad term. A horribly inaccurate term for what I'm describing. It covers everything from Minor Depression to ADHD to Schizophrenia.

    So lets boil this down to something much more accurate: if a person is deemed to be a danger to themselves and/or others, they should not be allowed to own a firearm. This in and of itself *implies* mental illness. This is where I'm coming from.

    The bigger problem, by far, is that this Loughner dude did not get help when he had the chance. *This* is the larger failing. The fact that he was able to get a hold of a firearm is secondary.
    This still raises my previous point: what is the duration of the ban?

    Someone may be deemed a threat to themselves or others, yet it is highly unlikely that they remain in that state for very long.

    The VT shooter was hospitalized ONE YEAR prior to his crime. Hannity suggested that the psychiatrist failed because he released the man. The problem with that reasoning is that at the time the decision was made, he probably (as evidenced by historical accounts) was NOT a threat at that time.

    Armchair retrospective quarterbacking has never won a game.

    Some people go through a mental health crisis ONCE in their lifetime (more likely MOST of us), yet we are productive for the rest of our lives.

    Mental health is not separate from physical health. Some people with serious illnesses behave in "crazy" ways until they are healed. Do we restrict their freedom as well?

    This truly is a slippery slope issue.

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    Ultimate Tone Slacker IanBallard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Frankly, if there were a dozen conceal/carry folks in the crowd with adequate firearm training, he may not have been able to empty his clip. Ms. Giffords was also an avid gun advocate and owner... too bad she didn't pack one.

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    Super Toneologist Desert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanBallard View Post
    Frankly, if there were a dozen conceal/carry folks in the crowd with adequate firearm training, he may not have been able to empty his clip. Ms. Giffords was also an avid gun advocate and owner... too bad she didn't pack one.
    IF, yes. Maybe this says something about how many people actually want to carry a gun.
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    Ultimate Tone Slacker IanBallard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert View Post
    IF, yes. Maybe this says something about how many people actually want to carry a gun.
    It was a rally composed primarily of supporters of Ms. Giffords, a Democrat. Not to cast aspersions or assumptions, but most hardcore liberal/Democrat folks I know, are advocates of gun control and/or banning pistols and anything but hunting guns. So, you aren't going to find many conceal/carry folk in such a crowd, generally. But I also think that most people are peaceful and probably innately feel they shouldn't have to carry one in our society. If anything, this incident should shake those folks into the reality that, perhaps, it's necessary. There are wide misconceptions that "the old west" was this dangerous, anarchic society but the reality is, it was quite safe in due partially to people carrying guns OUTSIDE their person, so potential Laughner types might think twice about doing such things. Hollywood often greatly exaggerated the old west and for good reason.... they make great dude movies.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4T1o...ayer_embedded#!

    Whether you like Alex Jones or don't, this video presents some scary commentary by mainstream media proposing radical destruction of the 1st and 2nd Amendments and some very headshakingly inane rhetoric by the left media. Alex is simply presenting FACTS, not conspiracy theories here. In fact, in the few years I've been listening to his show, most of what he reports is admitted in mainstream media and/or actual government documents. To my knowledge, he doesn't "make things up" or propose his own theories on anything. People, as the photo I posted earlier suggests, simply don't WANT to accept those facts. They are scary and I certainly don't WANT to believe what I believe. I simply refuse to bury my head in the sand.

  5. #125
    Super Toneologist Jet-Jaguar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Someone may be deemed a threat to themselves or others, yet it is highly unlikely that they remain in that state for very long.

    The VT shooter was hospitalized ONE YEAR prior to his crime. Hannity suggested that the psychiatrist failed because he released the man. The problem with that reasoning is that at the time the decision was made, he probably (as evidenced by historical accounts) was NOT a threat at that time.
    Speaking as someone who has had to deal with a family member with mental illness, it's very, very rarely a one-incident thing. "Good enough to leave the hospital" is not "fine and dandy, nothing will happen again" good. There is a LOT of denial in these situations, especially when health insurance limits are reached.

    Someone is depressed when depressing things happen; sure, that's life, it happens once and then you move on. But when someone really goes off the deep end, to the point where they have to be tricked into entering in a health facility, you're talking about several episodes happening before entering the hospital and for YEARS after.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    This truly is a slippery slope issue.
    Well, it is complicated. Science hasn't discovered everything there is to know about brain structure, chemistry, and all. But I think that, for the most part, the rights of the mentally ill have been placed in higher regard than the rights of those they affect.

    I know of a woman who has had psychotic episodes with their children, been ordered medication, and then that woman had her doctors take them off because the lithium was "making her fat." No joke, I've seen it up close and personal. And, of course, seen the inevitable fallout.

    If someone has gotten crazy-violent, you know what? They don't need a gun. They can buy a cell-phone and call 911 if they need protection.

    Armchair retrospective quarterbacking has never won a game.
    Yeah, and it's very, very easy to say that crazy people are okay if you've never actually dealt with any.
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanBallard View Post
    Frankly, if there were a dozen conceal/carry folks in the crowd with adequate firearm training, he may not have been able to empty his clip. Ms. Giffords was also an avid gun advocate and owner... too bad she didn't pack one.
    I routinely carry. That said, I do not think that a dozen concealed handguns would have been effective in stopping Loughner. If anything, it probably would have made things worse.

    Police gunfight reviews consistently show that the majority of bullets fired under duress miss their mark. Blasting away at a target in a crowd of people would have increased the slaughter.
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanBallard View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4T1o...ayer_embedded#!

    Whether you like Alex Jones or don't, this video presents some scary commentary by mainstream media proposing radical destruction of the 1st and 2nd Amendments and some very headshakingly inane rhetoric by the left media. Alex is simply presenting FACTS, not conspiracy theories here. In fact, in the few years I've been listening to his show, most of what he reports is admitted in mainstream media and/or actual government documents. To my knowledge, he doesn't "make things up" or propose his own theories on anything. People, as the photo I posted earlier suggests, simply don't WANT to accept those facts. They are scary and I certainly don't WANT to believe what I believe. I simply refuse to bury my head in the sand.

    His entire first statement is a personal conjecture.

    Tell us more about your time in the old west.
    Quote Originally Posted by krankguitarist View Post
    And I *really* wouldn't lop Affliction and Ed Hardy in the same category. Affliction stuff can have a sense of subtlety to it.

  8. #128
    Raining PunLord LesStrat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jet-Jaguar View Post
    Speaking as someone who has had to deal with a family member with mental illness, it's very, very rarely a one-incident thing. "Good enough to leave the hospital" is not "fine and dandy, nothing will happen again" good. There is a LOT of denial in these situations, especially when health insurance limits are reached.

    Someone is depressed when depressing things happen; sure, that's life, it happens once and then you move on. But when someone really goes off the deep end, to the point where they have to be tricked into entering in a health facility, you're talking about several episodes happening before entering the hospital and for YEARS after.


    Well, it is complicated. Science hasn't discovered everything there is to know about brain structure, chemistry, and all. But I think that, for the most part, the rights of the mentally ill have been placed in higher regard than the rights of those they affect.

    I know of a woman who has had psychotic episodes with their children, been ordered medication, and then that woman had her doctors take them off because the lithium was "making her fat." No joke, I've seen it up close and personal. And, of course, seen the inevitable fallout.

    If someone has gotten crazy-violent, you know what? They don't need a gun. They can buy a cell-phone and call 911 if they need protection.


    Yeah, and it's very, very easy to say that crazy people are okay if you've never actually dealt with any.
    You're right; I wouldn't know anything about this topic. Your sample size (N=1) overrules and negates everything I've said on this topic.
    Last edited by LesStrat; 01-11-2011 at 02:40 PM.

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    Ultimate Tone Slacker Frankly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanBallard View Post
    Frankly, if there were a dozen conceal/carry folks in the crowd with adequate firearm training, he may not have been able to empty his clip. Ms. Giffords was also an avid gun advocate and owner... too bad she didn't pack one.
    Thanks for your opinion and the personal touch, but I think next time a PM would be more appropriate. Frank Lee, who reluctantly packs heat on occasion, can only imagine the double (if not triple) digit carnage that might have erupted if a dozen guns were pointed at that kook at the same time.

    Thank You.

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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jet-Jaguar View Post
    I know of a woman who has had psychotic episodes with their children, been ordered medication, and then that woman had her doctors take them off because the lithium was "making her fat."
    .
    What was she wearing?

    Thank You.

  11. #131
    Ultimate Tone Slacker IanBallard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RushOfBlood View Post
    His entire first statement is a personal conjecture.

    Tell us more about your time in the old west.
    I have a Bachelors (working on my Masters) in History and wrote several papers on 19th Century America. Thanks!
    Last edited by IanBallard; 01-11-2011 at 11:50 PM.

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    Ultimate Tone Slacker IanBallard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly View Post
    Thanks for your opinion and the personal touch, but I think next time a PM would be more appropriate. Frank Lee, who reluctantly packs heat on occasion, can only imagine the double (if not triple) digit carnage that might have erupted if a dozen guns were pointed at that kook at the same time.

    Thank You.
    A PM? To who? This is a forum. Do you always talk about yourself in the third-person? Kind weird, dude.

    This isn't a joke or some forum to parade idealism. I geniunely believe the victims could have been saved from this onslaught if security was adequate or if there were adequately trained, armed folks in the crowd. No, I don't like the idea of packing heat in public or being paranoid, but there are many levels of irony connected with the liberal "left" and their fear of guns. Jared Nutcase is a minuscule minority in society and in the big picture, it probably shouldn't be the norm to carry a firearm to a political rally or meeting. However, as with my reference to the old West, the statistics of gun violence per capita was LOWER than in today's situation, yet lots people carried firearms, clearly visible on their person. Why? I think that's rather obvious.
    Last edited by IanBallard; 01-12-2011 at 12:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanBallard View Post
    A PM? To who? This is a forum. Do you always talk about yourself in the third-person? Kind weird, dude.

    This isn't a joke or some forum to parade idealism. I geniunely believe the victims could have been saved from this onslaught if security was adequate or if there adequately trained, armed folks in the crowd. No, I don't like the idea of packing heat in public or being paranoid, but there are many levels of irony connected with the liberal "left" and their fear of guns. Jared Nutcase is a minuscule minority in society and in the big picture, it probably shouldn't be the norm to carry a firearm to a political rally or meeting. However, as with my reference to the old West, the statistics of gun violence per capita was LOWER than in today's situation, yet lots people carried firearms, clearly visible on their person. Why? I think that's rather obvious.
    While it's an interesting correlation, I think more data would be needed to say that visible firearms were the cause of the lower rate of violence, whatever scientific means there would be of acquiring such figures about reported crime incidents.

    I'd be really interested to see some of this information, please pm me with a link if you have some good reading material offhand.
    Last edited by RushOfBlood; 01-12-2011 at 12:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by krankguitarist View Post
    And I *really* wouldn't lop Affliction and Ed Hardy in the same category. Affliction stuff can have a sense of subtlety to it.

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    Super Toneologist Desert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanBallard View Post
    It was a rally composed primarily of supporters of Ms. Giffords, a Democrat. Not to cast aspersions or assumptions, but most hardcore liberal/Democrat folks I know, are advocates of gun control and/or banning pistols and anything but hunting guns. So, you aren't going to find many conceal/carry folk in such a crowd, generally. But I also think that most people are peaceful and probably innately feel they shouldn't have to carry one in our society. If anything, this incident should shake those folks into the reality that, perhaps, it's necessary. There are wide misconceptions that "the old west" was this dangerous, anarchic society but the reality is, it was quite safe in due partially to people carrying guns OUTSIDE their person, so potential Laughner types might think twice about doing such things. Hollywood often greatly exaggerated the old west and for good reason.... they make great dude movies.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4T1o...ayer_embedded#!

    Whether you like Alex Jones or don't, this video presents some scary commentary by mainstream media proposing radical destruction of the 1st and 2nd Amendments and some very headshakingly inane rhetoric by the left media. Alex is simply presenting FACTS, not conspiracy theories here. In fact, in the few years I've been listening to his show, most of what he reports is admitted in mainstream media and/or actual government documents. To my knowledge, he doesn't "make things up" or propose his own theories on anything. People, as the photo I posted earlier suggests, simply don't WANT to accept those facts. They are scary and I certainly don't WANT to believe what I believe. I simply refuse to bury my head in the sand.
    I don't know if I can go with the idea that the political leanings of the crowd was why where weren't more conceal and carry folks ion the crowd. Maybe, or maybe not. I mean, we're talking about Giffords, a gun supporter as you stated, but then going to "most hardcore liberal/Democrat folks I know, are advocates of gun control and/or banning pistols and anything but hunting guns. So, you aren't going to find many conceal/carry folk in such a crowd, generally." How did we get from a candidate who is pro gun to her followers being hardcore liberal dems?

    I spent over 20 years living in small towns throughout the midwest, including Colorado, Wyoming, and South Dakota, and did not know anyone who carried a gun, not one, yet knew many people, including myself, who enjoy firearms and support the right to own them.

    Just my opinion, but I feel that the concept of a decent percentage of folks carrying firearms on a regular basis is long gone, as most people, by far, simply don't want to do it.
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Here is a possible look into the mind of Jared Loughner. If you know website, you know there is no shortage of wackos there.

    http://abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread649091/pg1


    We here at AboveTopSecret.com, our owners, staff, and membership find ourselves in the unfortunate position of apparently being one of the largest (if not the largest) repositories of online postings by someone who has been classified as a "monster" (among other things) due to his (accused) actions of two days ago. Online research that began on Reddit, and continued here on ATS has resulted in an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence to support the notion that the "erad3" member account here is Jared Loughner. Indeed, the content found in more than 4,000 Google search returns (including some pages in the mainstream press) have drawn the same conclusion.

    This is a rather unique situation, to say the least. I and our staff have been considering if we should provide a public statement, and if we do, what should we say? Especially since we're already being contacted by the media for comment and more information.

    The postings of "erad3" reveal someone who clearly has many questions for which answers have been elusive if not outright impossible to obtain. And despite the best efforts by many of our members, it seemed there were no answers to be found here for which he was satisfied.

    As is often typical, recent analysis in the media is rampant with all manner of conclusions, second-guesses, exaggerations, distortions, and missing information. The opinion of the staff and owners of AboveTopSecret.com is that it serves the public interest to provide an easy method to access every post made here by erad3 (normally, visitors must be logged-in to view such information).
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Bill Maher's take on this.

    Totally disgusting.
    Last edited by IanBallard; 01-12-2011 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by IanBallard View Post
    Bill Maher's take on this.

    Totally disgusting.
    Oh. That's just f'ing great.
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJohn View Post
    Nah,that's just Frank's style.
    Personally - I look forward to Frankly posts as he's usually pretty funny.
    Well, Ian got a bad first impression.

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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    Bill Maher is blaming the 2nd Amendment and the NRA.
    Sheriff Dupnik points the finger at talk radio.
    I even saw an article about the ‘dangerous lyrics’ the gunman listened to.
    Why so many ignorant statements ? IMO:
    They are using this tragedy simply to further their agenda and justify beliefs according to their world view. Not exactly open-minded but hey, everyone wants to be comfy in their little world. I’m sure they are not happy about the incident, so the focus may become about getting a sense of validation – which feels good. They have a chance to yell out Aha ! I knew it ! I told you so !

    That being said, I subscribe to the idea that as long as it does not harm anyone, people may believe anything they want.

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    Raining PunLord LesStrat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anyone Watching The News About The Shooting In Tucson AZ?

    I have a HUGE problem with Frankly's posts.











    They're infrequent.

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