Question for the REAL experts:59N vs. JazzN

[Lewguitar]

I guess I'm not a REAL expert because I don't know the answer to this question:

Why does a 7.72K alnico 5 Jazz neck humbucker sound brighter, cleaner and have less bass and lower output than a 7.43K alnico 5 59N?

I would think that all things being equal, the 7.72K pickup would have higher output than the 7.43K pickup.

Guess things are not equal!

So what's differant?

Are the magnets a differant size in each pickup?

Is the copper wire in the two pickups differant in some way?

Are the coils unbalanced in the Jazz so that the Jazz is a little brighter?

Now that the Jazz is a 4 conductor pickup, I'll have to make some measurements and see I guess! And maybe open one up and check the magnet.

Lew

[jeremy]

my guess is that it might be wound with different gauge wire in a slightly different pattern.

[Lewguitar]

Thanks Jeremy. I just did some measuring.

Jazz Neck: 7.39K...not 7.72K as listed on the specs page.
Coil #1: 3.76K
Coil #2: 3.63K


59 Neck: 7.27K...not 7.43K as listed on the specs page.
Coil #1: 3.6K
Coil #2: 3.67K

Interesting!

[Lewguitar]

Here's the chart:

http://www.basslines.com/website/tonechart.shtml#hum

[Davey]

the 59 does have a diferent gauge wire, and it's voiced diferently, therefore it can be percieved as higher output than the jazz??

[sanrafael]

Lew, you are certainly an expert on how pickups sound!
Here is one more possible factor: are the materials used for the cores, slugs, screws, whatever, the same? Different materials have different permeabilities. This is a multiplying factor in the equation for the inductance. The same material used differently also affects the inductance. For example, different length screws or slugs. These factors could shift the high frequency response significantly, and also the output level.

[Luke Duke]

I remember a loooong time ago when folks were asking Evan what made the SL so special in it's sound he said that the SL 59 and one or two other PAF style pups were made with WOOD spacers whereas the JB (his example) and Custom had PLASTIC spacers. He then told us not to tell the bean counters. So I know that much is different between pups I bet the jazz has plastic spacers because it's considered a progressive pup.

Geez Evan said that back in the day...when I worked at radioshack....ALMOST 3 YEARS AGO AHHHHHHHHHHH I have no life I'm always HERE.

Luke

[ArtieToo]

The only problem with that theory, is that neither wood nor plastic would affect the magnetic field. Both should be transparent as far as sound goes.

I think!

[Luke Duke]

Hey man it's all the chaos theory....if a butterfly in London beats its wings.....

I know they should be transparent I was just trying to give credence to the construction technique arguement.


Luke

[BachToRock]

They are wound with "similar" wire, but the 59 uses a heavier/thicker insulation which forms a fatter coil.
This creates higher inductance which translates to a bassier and less clear sounding pickup.

High inductance is a major part of the P-90's sound... they have a short/fat coil and tone that matches!

Otherwise... the Screws, Slugs, Magnet and baseplate are the same... the wood spacer could possibly account for some microphonic vibration absorbtion/suppression in comparison to a plastic one?

Of course there are MANY variables in what creates the sound that comes from our instruments and eventually out of a speaker... here is a great article for those with the minds to comprehend...
http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

[Lewguitar]

They are wound with "similar" wire, but the 59 uses a heavier/thicker insulation which forms a fatter coil.
This creates higher inductance which translates to a bassier and less clear sounding pickup.

High inductance is a major part of the P-90's sound... they have a short/fat coil and tone that matches!

Otherwise... the Screws, Slugs, Magnet and baseplate are the same... the wood spacer could possibly account for some microphonic vibration absorbtion/suppression in comparison to a plastic one?

Of course there are MANY variables in what creates the sound that comes from our instruments and eventually out of a speaker... here is a great article for those with the minds to comprehend...
http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

Great info. Thanks! Where'd you hear that about the wire? I'd assume they're both 42 ga. Lew

[Hoss]

great questions and answers in this thread...


very insightful...i've learned alot!

[BachToRock]

Yeah... that's a killer article... if the JAZZ was a different guage the size of the coil would be physically much smaller(43) or larger(41)...

Lew... you really need a 59/Custom A2 Hybrid... it seems as though we are eye to eye in our tastes... I have a couple Tweed Deluxes at home

[ArtieToo]

More good info on this in the SD Q & A section:

#'s 9.2, 76, 141, 184, 188 (good one), 202, and 204.

[sanrafael]

They are wound with "similar" wire, but the 59 uses a heavier/thicker insulation which forms a fatter coil.
This creates higher inductance which translates to a bassier and less clear sounding pickup.

Heavier insulation on the same size copper does make the wire slightly larger and the coil slightly fatter for the same number of turns. But it does not make the inductance any higher. When a fatter coil using the same cores has higher inductance, it is because it has more turns. And that would show up as a higher resistance, so that is not the case here.

Are you sure everything else you mention is really the same?

[BachToRock]

I'm sorry, but it is an electrical fact...

Changing the size or shape of the coil changes the inductance and thus alters the frequency response of the pickup.

Therefore, if you have 2 coils wound to the same resistance with the same guage wire, but one of them uses a heavier insulation creating a fatter coil... it will ABSOLUTELY have higher inductance... there are no if/and/buts to it...

Also, I will state again that this is only one variable of many that can affect the response of a pickup, but it is a signifigant one relating to the 2 that Lew inquired about... I would imagine Seymour has different winding techniques for each specific model, otherwise any Joe Shmoe could use the same ingredients and make pickups as good as Duncans.

[Lewguitar]

I'm sorry, but it is an electrical fact...

Changing the size or shape of the coil changes the inductance and thus alters the frequency response of the pickup.

Therefore, if you have 2 coils wound to the same resistance with the same guage wire, but one of them uses a heavier insulation creating a fatter coil... it will ABSOLUTELY have higher inductance... there are no if/and/buts to it...

Also, I will state again that this is only one variable of many that can affect the response of a pickup, but it is a signifigant one relating to the 2 that Lew inquired about... I would imagine Seymour has different winding techniques for each specific model, otherwise any Joe Shmoe could use the same ingredients and make pickups as good as Duncans.

I suspect that this is true! Thanks Bach To Rock.

I don't think the Jazz and 59 use differant gauge wire, as someone suggested. But the insulation thing makes sense to me.

I know 42 ga. copper wire but with a differant thickness of insulating coating is used by many pickup winders to come up with a certain tone.

That's what they're talking about when they mention plain enamel vs poly coatings. But I forgot all about that when I posted the question.

I think the plain enamel is thinnest and is what you'll find in vintage pafs and vintage Fender pickups. But I'm getting out of my range of expertise here and could be wrong.

Lew

[sanrafael]

BachToRock:

But there are ifs and buts. What you say would be true for an air core coil, or comparing two coils with different size iron cores. But that is not the case here. It is the cores, slugs or screws, that have all the effect. Their permeability is thousands of times relative to air, and a winding with lots of air space around the cores does not contribute more to the inductance than a winding close to the cores. In effect, the area containing air rather than iron is wasted. No winding can contribute more than one close to the core.

Windings very far away from the core will actoally contribute less because some of the field lines passing through the cores will come out of one end and return to the other end inside the winding. Their effect cancels out.

[ranalli]

I'm sorry, but it is an electrical fact...

Changing the size or shape of the coil changes the inductance and thus alters the frequency response of the pickup.

Therefore, if you have 2 coils wound to the same resistance with the same guage wire, but one of them uses a heavier insulation creating a fatter coil... it will ABSOLUTELY have higher inductance... there are no if/and/buts to it...

Also, I will state again that this is only one variable of many that can affect the response of a pickup, but it is a signifigant one relating to the 2 that Lew inquired about... I would imagine Seymour has different winding techniques for each specific model, otherwise any Joe Shmoe could use the same ingredients and make pickups as good as Duncans.

So I'm reading this as DC Resistance measurements aren't good indicators of overall output....am I right??

[Gearjoneser]

I think somewhere Seymour is rubbing his hands together, laughing at us, because we haven't yet figured out that ALL Duncans are identical. He only made one, and stamped a bunch of different names on it, just to keep us all interested. He figured with all the different music styles and guitars, we'd never figure it out.