Pirated Software - when is it okay?

[GoldenVulture]

[GuitarStv]

I don't understand the need to download music. Getting a CD or a legal non-DRM mp3 from Amazon lets you do anything with the thing you like.

I've downloaded music that I owned before because I scratched the disk and it would no longer play. These days it's actually faster to download an album off the internet than to rip everything and rename it all off of a CD, so that's what I usually do when buying media. From there the music goes into my home theater PC, the PC in my guitar room, my mp3 player in the car, and the CD is filed away in a box in the basement for all eternity.

I prefer having physical media over Amazon.com because I know that the media will always be there if I need to rip the song at some point in the future (or if I need to prove that I'm not a music pirate).

Movies on the other hand with non-skippable advertising on DVDs, region enforcement on DVDs, the inability to play Blu Ray on Linux without breaking the DRM, the inability to get a 720p version of anything. None of these problems exist for downloaded movies and TV series. I really don't know what the movie marketeers are thinking there.

Movies are ridiculous.

I download any movie or TV show that I buy immediately, because it's so much easier to use stolen stuff than legit stuff. Seriously. If I want to watch the first season of Dexter I just click one button for each episode on my HTPC. If I want to watch it from the Blu-Ray I need to watch ads, go through a clunky interface, actually get up from the couch and change disks every three shows, actually find the disks in one of the boxes in the basement . . . screw that.

I've got another question regarding TV Shows too:

If a show is available free to air (like the Simpsons or House or something) and you TiVo it and skip the commercials . . . how is that any different than you downloading the episode to watch later on?

[ratherdashing]

As someone who makes software for a living, my answer is "never".

I do, however, think that some software is insanely overpriced, which is the single biggest contributor to piracy. If you ask someone why they pirated the software, nine times out of ten the answer is "there's no way in hell I'd pay $lots for this!"

Cost is no excuse for piracy though, just as it's no excuse for physical theft.

[GuitarStv]

As someone who makes software for a living, my answer is "never".

I do, however, think that some software is insanely overpriced, which is the single biggest contributor to piracy. If you ask someone why they pirated the software, nine times out of ten the answer is "there's no way in hell I'd pay $lots for this!"

Cost is no excuse for piracy though, just as it's no excuse for physical theft.

So the guy who loses his windows product key is SOL and should rebuy the software, despite having paid for the software?

[GuitarStv]

Reflecting on that... It isn't free to air. The commercials pay for the show. You getting branded/brainwashed into product purchases is why its free to air.

Plus you don't get any Left or right wing biasing if you do it that way when the news pokes in. You know to get you mind off of the administration and the NWO that is coming down on us.

Yeah, but nobody calls you a pirate for Tivoing something . . .

[oilpit]

I steal all my music, I don't rationalize it, it's stealing but I still do it. I know it's wrong, maybe I'll go to hell, but I don't regret any of it, more than half the music in my library and some of my favorite bands I never would have been exposed to if it weren't for torrenting albums.

One thing that does piss me off is people acting like this is a new thing, if you've ever borrowed a friends CD and loaded it into your iTunes or copied a cassete, you've pirated.

[Left_Hand_Strat]

Iv pirated a game before but it was something stupid like 50GBP and i wasn't willing to risk that much money to see that it didnt work on my laptop so I had a logical reason for it...

[SlyFoxx]

So the guy who loses his windows product key is SOL and should rebuy the software, despite having paid for the software?

Think about it this way. If you lost favorite Telecaster would you expect Fender to give you a new one?

[garublador]

So the guy who loses his windows product key is SOL and should rebuy the software, despite having paid for the software?

Yep. Try going up to your car dealer and telling them you lost your car so they should give you another one.

ne thing that does piss me off is people acting like this is a new thing, if you've ever borrowed a friends CD and loaded it into your iTunes

That is a new thing.

or copied a cassete, you've pirated.

That was piracy, too but they never really saw it as a problem. You can get one or two "generations" out of a cassette transfer before it turned to crap, so unless you're copying the original over and over (which might catch someone's attention) you weren't worth going after. With digital media like MP3's you can make infinite copies with no loss so the original copy can easily spawn dozens of clones and each clone can spawn dozens more clones. There's no physical proximity limit, either. Anyone with a computer who's connected to the world wide network we call the internet can make their own copy from any other place in the world. Even with CD's you had to physically give something to someone else to pirate the music. Though by the time that was financially worth while MP3's were getting popular so that method of pirating (copying CD's) wasn't very long lived. They tended to not be very durable, either, unlike an MP3.

So the problem is several orders of magnitude worse than it was when you only had cassettes or even CD's. If you like the shoplifting metaphor, it's the difference between taking a penny from the tray and stealing all the money from the register. Had the record industry known that it would snowball that bad, I'm guessing they would have been more apt to devise some sort of IP protection much earlier on so it would be the precedent rather than pirating not being prosecuted being the precedent like we have now.

[exnihilo]

I'm old enough to have dubbed tapes. Don't pretend that you fools haven't. Right, wrong, immoral, or whatever, the simplicity of being able to do something doesn't make it any less right or wrong.

Did you know that Piratebay is going to have a "3D" file section soon? 3D as in, for a 3D printer. You want such-a-such device? Download the data, and print out a real-world version of it. Choke on that ****!

xoxo

cg

[ImmortalSix]

Hosting space and download delivery infrastructure / overheads are not free.

[devil's advocate]

[Kam]

This song is my stock response whenever this thread comes up...



Piracy is piracy,
If you sail the seven seas or surf the net.
Record firms, they're making losses,
But they still spend it like they're making it.
It's fifty grand to make a ****ing video.
And Sardy albums cost a fifth per track.
And so your favourite band,
They don't make that second album.
Dropped by their label 'cause they can't pay it back.

It killed them
It killed them
It killed them
It killed them

Well I got some news for you then my brother,
This is a business like any other.
You got your product, make money off it.
You count your losses against your profits.
And if you're thinking "So? So?"
You don't know.

Underground, that's where we come from.
We don't wear no suits and we are not called "The."
But chart success, that brings security.
You watch these brothers thinking "Why not me?"
So show me where to sign,
And I'll write my name down in my own red blood.
Because there comes a time when you think a house might be nice,
And selling out don't mean a ****, you see.

It kills me
It kills me
It kills me
It kills me

Well how's about you come down and I'll explain?
Get yourself to London on the train,
Then I'll just send you home again.

Well how's about you come down and I'll explain?
Lean a little bit closer, I'll make it plain;
You don't stand a ****ing chance.

I'd like a job in which I'm able,
To put shoes on my feet and food on my table.
Those nine-to-fivers they look pretty stable,
But I get my wages from my record label.
And if you're thinking "So? So? So?"

And if you're thinking "So? So?"
You don't know enough about it.
Because this death is slow.

'Guitarist and Songwriter',
That's what I thought I was.
I never had no dreams of being a waiter.
But these here Helmet rip-offs,
They don't buy my lunch.
So I will get a real job in the office.

And I won't bother to make my music.
And I won't bother to sing my songs.
And I won't bother to get excited.
And I won't bother to get her off.

And I won't bother to make my music
And I won't bother to sing my songs
And I won't...
And I won't...


And I won't bother to make my music
And I won't bother to sing my songs

Sure... yeah sure
Sure

I downloaded a few songs when I was a kid. Mostly for the novelty, really. I was blown away that it was possible. I haven't done it since I was about 16, though. It just doesn't sit right with me.

The members of Reuben, the band I just posted, were working full time jobs whilst they wrote, recorded and toured a demo, three full length albums, a double-album worth of B-sides and a live DVD. Eventually, they broke up because they just couldn't afford to keep it going. Personally, I'm sick to death of that happening to some of the best underground talent on these isles.

I won't download music and I won't even copy CDs for friends. I'll point them towards the band's Myspace or Soundcloud or whatever. Maybe I'll Email them a song or two. Then I'll direct their cheap asses to the merch stand at the next gig and tell them to buy their own ****ing CD. And maybe a shirt or sticker or something while they're at it.

By the way, I currently have two programs on my computer that my friend gave me on a disc a couple of years ago. One of them I opened up once and immediately closed it. The other I've used a few times, but not more than I'd get out of the free trial they offer. If I used them often or even planned to use them at all in the future, I'd go buy them.

[uOpt]

One thing that does piss me off is people acting like this is a new thing, if you've ever borrowed a friends CD and loaded it into your iTunes or copied a cassete, you've pirated.

No, there is such a thing as "fair use". Laws differ by country but under certain circumstances physically exchanging data media with people you directly know counts as "fair use" and is not a copyright violation even if a second copy ends up staying.

The most interesting case is what is now known as the Betamax case where fair use was upheld and VCRs were not declared illegal (yes, outlawing VCRs is what the media industry tried to do).

And just so that we are clear: I pirate no music and I buy everything on CD or sometimes Amazon legal downloads. But I have no illusions whatsoever how much of that money arrives at the artist. Nothing. I don't go for mainstream music and as long as you aren't a music billionaire yet you get pretty much none of the money from record sales. I money I spend on music goes to Amazon and the record labels, and the labels are the one screwing over the artists.

This is another reason how the media industry first creates the piracy problem (in the case by alienating honest people like me and make them look stupid) and then asks the lawmakers to invent laws to protect whatever happens to be their business of today.

[ImmortalSix]

And so your favourite band,
They don't make that second album.
Dropped by their label 'cause they can't pay it back.

It killed them


'Guitarist and Songwriter',
That's what I thought I was.
I never had no dreams of being a waiter.
But these here Helmet rip-offs,
They don't buy my lunch.
So I will get a real job in the office.

And I won't bother to make my music.
And I won't bother to sing my songs.
And I won't bother to get excited.

Amen

Pretty well echoes my sentiment.

[garublador]

Here you have highlighted an important difference though.

Telecasters cost money to make, that is, EACH ONE costs money to make. If you lose your telecaster and it has to be replaced, then the cost of the materials and workmanship has to be paid all over again. If you get a replacement without paying then someone is losing the money it cost to produce. Same with cars.

If i lose my windows disc and then download it illegally... the copy i am downloading does not cost windows ANYTHING to reproduce. They are not losing money by me finding myself a free-of-charge replacement.

Can't you see the difference?

Piracy can be a victimless crime, it's not even on the same level as physical stealing.

It's not victimless. You're just putting a lot more value on physical production than development. If you lose a Telecaster Fender won't sell you one for cost. They'll still charge you as much as they would anyone else. They also don't send out regular upgrades to your Telecaster for no extra cost. Nor do they have to keep inventing new guitars that cost billions of dollars to develop like Vista did every few years. Your assumption that reproducing stuff is the only cost is false. With IP that's the lowest cost part of it. Either way you have to charge customers to get your product and you can't afford to give it away just because people can't take care of their crap for themselves. It doesn't matter if the cost is in the development or in the production, it's still cost. Whether or not you see value in one or the other is irrelevant.

[Kam]

Amen

Pretty well echoes my sentiment.

Thanks for the new sig.

[ImmortalSix]

Tally ho - glad that someone shares my view on all this.

[garublador]

You're talking as though Mircrosoft (for example) loses more money if 10,000 people download their product than if only 1,000 people did... and i can't see how that can be the case.

And Fender doesn't make less money if 1,000 people buy their guitars than if 10,000 do? Both have less money either way. Whether or not you "would have" bought it is irrelevant. Either you payed to use it or you didn't. Again, the losses in production costs don't make stealing from Fender worse just because they exist. Both companies have costs and charge for their products. The only difference that matters is how easy each one is to steal.

Sure, it costs money to develop, but once it's developed it doesn't cost them any money for me to download it illegally.

So if Fender had a day where all of their employees worked for free and their materials were free to them for the day, it would be perfectly fine to seal those guitars as long as you bought one in the past? Stealing doesn't mean costing a company extra for production. It means you take their product without paying for it. It doesn't matter if that affects development more than production, it just matters that you took it from the company without paying.

I think Guitarstv's point is that the only moral stance you can take is that by just stealing it outright some could argue you are depriving the company of the development costs, but if you've already bought it, then this is not the case... you no longer depriving them of anything, they are really not going to lose any money if you go on uTorrent and download it.

If you'd care to explain how a company loses money if GuitarStv illegally downloads something he's already paid for one copy of, then i'd be interested.[/QUOTE]You're using the product without paying for it. You lost the first one, you don't get a second one at production cost. Nothing has ever worked like that before. If I lose my car Honda isn't morally obligated to sell me one at their production cost. The next one will still be priced for them to make money on it. They didn't lose my car, I lost it. I have to pay for a new one. The only reason you think software is different is becasue you can steal it without getting caught. All of your other arguments are just bad justifications for stealing. Nothing you can say will change that.

[SlyFoxx]

...If you'd care to explain how a company loses money if GuitarStv illegally downloads something he's already paid for one copy of, then i'd be interested.

If you DL intellectual property illegally, you are stealing it. (Stealing's bad, M'kay. You shouldn't steal, M'kay.) Therefore company X doesn't make any money. Because you stole it. If you DL intellectual property legally that means you didn't steal it. You didn't commit a crime (Criminals sometimes go to jail. Jail is bad M'kay. You don't want to go to jail...M'kay.) The company makes money by selling you their property.


BTW this is my final word on the subject as I refuse to discuss the painfully obvious with someone who refuses to see what is plain and clear.

[LesStrat]

That's the result of moral relativism.