Colossal Disappointment...

[dumb]

I'm posting what I just posted on The Gear Page.

I installed a couple Seymour Duncan pickups in my Epiphone LP, and now the guitar sounds like absolute ****. I put the SDs in, didn't like the sound, tried re-wiring, still didn't like it, but the stock Epiphone pickups in - much better - then put the SDs in one more time. Still sounds like ****.

I have a Seth Lover humbucker in the bridge and a Phat Cat P90 in the neck. First off, the Seth Lover doesn't balance well with the Phat Cat at all - the Phat Cat is much, much louder. Second, now when I play clean, my tone is muffled and muddy. Third, when I play dirty, it's so grainy and abrasive that I can barely stand to listen to myself play anymore.

Any advice on how to make this work? I'm about ready to give up...

[firebirdV]

Need more information.

Are you saying that the two pickups not balancing is what makes them sound bad?

You should be able to adjust each pickup individually and get either one to sound good. No guarantees with making them work together in the same guitar, but you should not have a problem making them sound good individually after fiddling with your amp.

Have you adjusted the height of the pickups? What sounds muddy? What sounds grainy?

[jeremy]

what amps and pedals are you using?

the seth is a paf type pup thats pretty unforgiving and the phat cat neck is warm and thick for a neck single coil but its still just a single coil

[dumb]

Need more information.

Are you saying that the two pickups not balancing is what makes them sound bad?

You should be able to adjust each pickup individually and get either one to sound good. No guarantees with making them work together in the same guitar, but you should not have a problem making them sound good individually after fiddling with your amp.

Have you adjusted the height of the pickups? What sounds muddy? What sounds grainy?

Nah, the balance and the sound are two separate issues. The balance issue was aimed more at the TGP audience where I'd made the same post - a couple posters there had specifically pointed out that pair of pickups as well-balanced.

When I play clean with everything at 12 o'clock, both pickups on, it sounds like I'm listening to the sound come out from a paper cup - very muffled and unclear. I can get the Phat Cat to sound a little clearer if I knock bass all the way down to zero and boost presence about 6 decibels, but it's still dull. The Seth Lover, meanwhile, still sounds just as muffled and muddy.

When I play dirty, I ironically get a little bit more clarity - my Tube Screamer kicks out the dullness - but when I have the TS on a minimum gain setting, the Seth Lover bridge pickup yields that hissy, gainy sound you get when you play a Big Muff at max gain and max treble. It's ugly. Not playing into any other pedals at the moment.

I've adjusted the heights of both the pole pieces and the entire pickups multiple times in either direction. Again, the Phat Cat seems more responsive to the help - it's least bad when I bring all the pole pieces down and then tilt up the treble side of the pickup - but the Seth Lover doesn't respond to anything I try.

[CountFunkula]

Amp?

[Push to Shuv]

If the pots and caps are stock, replacing them with quality pieces might help bring some clarity out

[RayBarbeeMusic]

1st problem was taking advice from anyone on The Fraud Page.

[LatsMcGee]

If the pots and caps are stock, replacing them with quality pieces might help bring some clarity out

This.....

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Quality being 2W mil spec?

Or do you mean equally crappy CTS/Bourns/Alpha?

Unless the resistance on the pot is substantially lower than 500k, some other pot that measures 500k won't make a difference.

[Funkfingers]

Erm, which EXACT version of Epiphone LP is under discussion here? They offer everything from the Elite range down to the screw-on neck, plywood body LP100. The latter would make pretty much any pickup sound lousy.

[marcello252]

Erm, which EXACT version of Epiphone LP is under discussion here?

+1

also, there are a lot of variable, the amp for example, what is it?

[orpheo]

the seth is not so hot but very, very clear. it really shows the woods of your guitar. the phat cat is a bit hotter and has a stronger 'character'. the notoriously bad pots of the epi don't help much either. changing pots, hardware, pickups on an epi is in the long run so expensive. you poor so much money in it, for not-so much gain.

[freefrog]

Check the pots: if they measure less than 450k, change them.

Check the wiring of your guitar : what you write suggests that your harness might create much inner capacitance. It might be the case if too much wire is used inside (braided shielded wire = more than 300pf per meter; cheap plastic coated wiring used by Asian factories could be more "capacitive" than that).

If you plug your axe through a cable which is curly/long/cheap, it could also cause "stray capacitance" and give a muddy sound. Try a low capacitance guitar cable.

Accept to change your amp settings: what is good for weak stock PU's won't work for warmer/louder models.

In a typical situation, the Seth should give you a sound like the one described in this shootout:
http://www.vintageguitar.com/3602/vg...hoot-out-2005/

If it doesn't work, try Alnico 5 instead of Alnico2 (because I wonder if the problem is not there, finally)...

Good luck.

[blueman335]

If it doesn't work, try Alnico 5 instead of Alnico2 (because I wonder if the problem is not there, finally)...

+1. You may not like the sound of A2's, it took me a while to get used to them. They make Phat Cats very dark and muffled in the neck slot, so I changed them out for brighter magnets (like A5's, A4's, and A3's). For me, A2 PAF's took a little while for me to warm up to. They have a soft, rounded high end, lots of mids, a looser low end, lots of dynamics, and a more organic sound. My first Duncans were '59's (A5's) which have a sharper, clearer high end, a firm bottom, and scooped mids, which were more to my liking. Eventually I came to appreciate an A2's qualities, but it took a few years (still don't like A2's in Phat Cats though). Every magnet produces a different EQ in a PU (they have different magnetic fields that read different areas of the string vibrations).

Can you exchange your PU's? If so a Jazz set or '59 set (both have A5's) would be more to your liking. If you want a hotter bridge a C5 (SH-14) is very good in mahogany. If you can't exchange them, then swapping magnets will give you what you want (takes 10 minutes and mags cost several dollars, we'll teach you how). There's about 10 kinds of alnicos available from our main magnet supplier, so you can dial in the tones you want in HB's and P-90's.

I have a bunch of Epi's, and they all come with 500K's. The tolerence on pots is usually about 10% and that difference usually isn't audible, and if it is, it would be slight. I wouldn't focus on that at this point, I think the magnet character is what you're having a issue with. I think you need A5 PU's.

[Gypsyblue]

Did you buy them new? If so, I'd return the Phat Cat and get a neck Seth Lover. You have 21 days to do so if you bought them new from a real Duncan dealer.

If a pair of Seths don't sound at least "really good" in your Les Paul you've got other problems that need to be addressed first because Seths are really good pickups.

Not surprised about the Phatcat. I liked it but it wasn't right for me either and I traded it off.

[Mr. B]

Perhaps we should ask what tones you WANTED to get with these pickups....

?????

[Hellion]

I've been trying to figure out under what circumstances either the Phat Cat or the Seth would sound bad, and I can't come up with anything. So, I think we need to know what you were wanting out of the instrument.

[Jessie's ghost]

Erm, which EXACT version of Epiphone LP is under discussion here? They offer everything from the Elite range down to the screw-on neck, plywood body LP100. The latter would make pretty much any pickup sound lousy.

I've got an LP100, and the "plywood" is a pieced-together sandwich of alder and some variation on the mahogany theme -- neither top-shelf stuff nor actual plywood. The '59A2 neck and A2P bridge sound pretty darn good in it, actually. In fact, the stock Epi pickups weren't bad, but well, we gotta fill up those landfills with something.

I suspect that, assuming no problems with the install, the OP is experiencing a disconnect of expectations. When I read posts like this, my first thought is, "What did you think they would sound like?"

[dumb]

I'll answer all the questions that pop out at me. If I missed a question, it's not that I'm ignoring it or don't think it's relevant - it's just that a lot of questions came at me overnight while I slept.

Which guitar is it?

Epiphone Les Paul Standard, 2006, Dae Won factory.

Amp?

Peavey Special 112, 1988

Pots?

500k

What were you expecting?

I was expecting better brightness, sharpness, and clarity out of the bridge and something punchy out of the neck. What I'm getting instead is something grainy and abrasive that - as I've said somewhere before, maybe not here - it reminds me of a Big Muff on max gain, max treble...when the only dirt I have in the mix is a Tube Screamer at minimum gain.

[jeremy]

if you bought them new, go exchange them