Nut too high?

[SpiderVenom]

I'm thinking the nut on my DXMG is set too high. If I get the neck perfectly straight, with absolutely no relief, first fret action is ok, but as soon as I start adding even minute relief, the strings start getting very far away from the first fret. Currently, relief is about half a business card, and first fret action is about 0.6~0.7mm (6th string). Action on said string at 12th fret is about 1.5mm.

All in all, this is really annoying. I can't really get the action near where I want without lots of annoying D string buzzing and high action on the low frets. There's no real reputable guitar techs around about either... I wish I lived near OctaveDoctor

[MattPete]

Fret the the third fret. There should just barely be a gap between the string and the first fret.

[krankguitarist]

Mattpete got it pretty right...If your nut is too high it'll typically lead to action/intonation problems, too low and it'll be buzzy as all hell.

Is the axe a bolt-on? If so, shimming the neck might help a bit too.

[SpiderVenom]

Fret the the third fret. There should just barely be a gap between the string and the first fret.

The gap is just short of the thickness of a playing card. So perhaps the nut is ok after all? Guess I'll go back to tweaking. Thanks for the tip.

Edit: yeah, it's a bolt on. I could shim, but I'd rather avoid things like unscrewing the neck at this point. So is a gap a bit less than a playing card ok?

[Zerberus]

Shimming the neck is not going to lower the action @the nut. It will just cause you to have to redo half the setup because the tensioln along he neck will be minimally chanced, the bridge will now be too low (or too high, depending on whether you shim "up" or "down")..... and if you visualize I what your´re doing in that situation, you´ll quickly see that it won´t help in the least.

There should a be a small shim under the locking nut on your dinky. it will probably drop the strings too far if you remove it, though, but you can use tinfoil as a new shim to raise it again a bit. But half a playing card is ok, could be minimally less, though.

[SpiderVenom]

Shimming the neck is not going to lower the action @the nut. It will just cause you to have to redo half the setup because the tensioln along he neck will be minimally chanced, the bridge will now be too low (or too high, depending on whether you shim "up" or "down")..... and if you visualize I what your´re doing in that situation, you´ll quickly see that it won´t help in the least.

There should a be a small shim under the locking nut on your dinky. it will probably drop the strings too far if you remove it, though, but you can use tinfoil as a new shim to raise it again a bit. But half a playing card is ok, could be minimally less, though.

Now that I picture it, I can see what you mean.

I didn't notice a shim, I'll have to check that out. I've actually managed to get it playing pretty well after a night of tweaking, but annoyingly the D & G strings a buzzier than the other four... it's like they need to be a bit higher.

Thanks

[Loserchief]

Now that I picture it, I can see what you mean.

I didn't notice a shim, I'll have to check that out. I've actually managed to get it playing pretty well after a night of tweaking, but annoyingly the D & G strings a buzzier than the other four... it's like they need to be a bit higher.

Thanks

that's exactly what's needed to get the best out of a DXMG(or any floyd guitar for that matter): Matching the saddle heights to the radius of the fretboard. My take on this(incorporating a material-tip by zerb). Lower both e-strings to the lowest possible heights where they don't buzz and don't get chocked when pulling up the bar. Then go saddle by saddly starting either at the a or b sting , and do as follows:

-loosen the string
-take off the saddle
-take a good look the radius of the board and the additional height needed to keep the string away from the fretboard when the outer strings are at their lowest.
-fold up a shim out of aluminium-foil that fits under the saddle and matches the radius of the board. You could also buy some shims,but that's not worth it imo
-Put the shim under the saddle and screw it back on(check intonation while at it and look that the shim is actually under the saddle and doesn't get pushed back out)
-proceed until all strings are done(no need to do the Es since they are the fix points in this)

i hope it's clear what i mean. If you get it right the saddles will follow the same profile as the fretboard and you'll have about the lowest action possible and no buzz at all. Worked perfectly on all my floyded guitars and made low actions even lower.
Hope i could help.

[SpiderVenom]

...

Good thing I came back to check this thread, I nearly missed this post

Thanks for the advice. Those D & especially the G strings have been the real problem so far, so I think I'll make a go of it, when I have some time this weekend.

I'm gonna look to see if there is a shim under the nut too, like Zerb said, because the nut is definitely too high.

Wish me luck

Edit: will normal aluminium foil from a supermarket do the trick?

Edit 2: one other question - when comparing the string height to the radius of the board, I assume I should compare it at the nut end, give it's a compound radius that flattens closer to the bridge?

[octavedoctor]

first fret action is about 0.6~0.7mm (6th string). Action on said string at 12th fret is about 1.5mm.

That sounds like too much to me.

Check the clearance between the string and the first fret when the string is stopped at the third fret. The gap shouldn't be any greater than that between the second fret and the string when it is bridging the first and third fret.

[octavedoctor]

I wish I lived near OctaveDoctor

I'll do house calls if you send me the air fare!

[octavedoctor]

Thanks for the advice. Those D & especially the G strings have been the real problem so far, so I think I'll make a go of it, when I have some time this weekend.

If you have a compound radius fingerboard you may find that you have to tolerate a slightly high action to the outer strings at the nut in order for the D and G not to touch down on the first fret

Edit: will normal aluminium foil from a supermarket do the trick?

Yes, but you'll die of boredom while you stack it up.
Ordinary 600 grade wet and dry does the trick and its rough surface offers plenty of grip to stop the nut slipping.

Edit 2: one other question - when comparing the string height to the radius of the board, I assume I should compare it at the nut end, give it's a compound radius that flattens closer to the bridge?

See my comment above. You haven't really got any control over the radius of the nut anyway...

[SpiderVenom]

I'll do house calls if you send me the air fare!

Shame I just spent all my money on the guitar, eh

If you have a compound radius fingerboard you may find that you have to tolerate a slightly high action to the outer strings at the nut in order for the D and G not to touch down on the first fret

The radius begins at 12" and flattens out to 14". The nut itself seems to match pretty closely (holding all strings at the 3rd fret shows a seemingly identical distance between each string and first fret, but I suppose it's not that simple to judge). I may as well give shimming the saddles a go, I figure - not much to lose.

Check the clearance between the string and the first fret when the string is stopped at the third fret. The gap shouldn't be any greater than that between the second fret and the string when it is bridging the first and third fret.

Definitely a bit higher. I've also heard that open action should be the same as second fret action when fretting at the first, and it's most definitely higher than that.

Yes, but you'll die of boredom while you stack it up.
Ordinary 600 grade wet and dry does the trick and its rough surface offers plenty of grip to stop the nut slipping.

Dumb question - that's sandpaper, right?


[cut from newer post]

Well, bit of bad news - my nut doesn't have any shims under it, so sanding down the nut slot would be the only option, and this isn't something I want to attempt without the required tools and expertise.

I'll still try shimming the saddles, though.

[SpiderVenom]

Ok, so currently, the nut is just sitting in its slot, with a few strings over in at tension, because I don't trust the truss rod without something to counter it. Call it paranoia

As I said above, I'm just not going to attack the slot - too much risk, especially with the binding. But I was wondering - is it possible to grind a bit off the bottom of the nut to lower it, or is this a bad idea?

[Zerberus]

... But I was wondering - is it possible to grind a bit off the bottom of the nut to lower it, or is this a bad idea?

This is actually quite a common practice, but make sure you know what you´re doing before you start.. you essentially want to "shorten" the entire nut body equally from the bottom

[SpiderVenom]

This is actually quite a common practice, but make sure you know what you´re doing before you start.. you essentially want to "shorten" the entire nut body equally from the bottom

Yeah, I figured you'd want to get it even A grinder would be a necessity, I suppose, given the thing is made from steel - any methods for keeping it even, or is it just a case of skill?

[WhoFan]

My mid 90's Dinky's both were not setting up for me very well.... the D and the G strings would rattle on the frets.... I ended up dressing the frets on my Blue one to a flatter radius and it cured most of my set up troubles..... It seemed my neck was too rounded for the Floyds nut radius....... The outside E strings would not lower enough without the D and G strings being too far down....

Too this day that Jackson i did the dress on is my slickest playing guitar!!!

[Zerberus]

Yeah, I figured you'd want to get it even A grinder would be a necessity, I suppose, given the thing is made from steel - any methods for keeping it even, or is it just a case of skill?

1. Use vise grips or similar to get a firm grip on the nut (you don´t want your fingers that close to the grinder anyway)

2. Maintain as even a pressure as possible (1 also facilitates this)

3. Go slowly and check your progress often with a right angle guage from all four sides..to quote my old Master "If you think you´re not going fast enough, you´re probably still going too fast"

The rest is in the fingers

BTW, as far as the radii go, the bridge should be about 16" and the nut should have a 12"... this is standard factory setup on the compound radius imports and usually matches the fretboard´s flattening perfectly

[SpiderVenom]

1. Use vise grips or similar to get a firm grip on the nut (you don´t want your fingers that close to the grinder anyway)

2. Maintain as even a pressure as possible (1 also facilitates this)

3. Go slowly and check your progress often with a right angle guage from all four sides..to quote my old Master "If you think you´re not going fast enough, you´re probably still going too fast"

The rest is in the fingers

Vise grips? So I don't have to hold it in my teeth?

I might give it a go - actually, I might trick my dad into doing it, since he's good at this stuff. Thanks for the info.

[octavedoctor]

Is this a Floyd nut clamp we are talking about?

You'll find that if you use a linisher it will get very hot so don't hold it in your fingers!

Personally i'd remove some of the wood from the milled land at the end of the fingerboard, but thats a pretty skiled job.

One word of warning: a common error is to sett the nut height while there is too much relief in the neck. Then when the neck is straightened up, the string buzzes on the first fret.

I assess the nut height with the neck dead straight (particularly important on a Les Paul as the truss rods active footprint extends beyond the nut), then pop a little relief back in after I've finished.

When i don't forget, of course...

[SpiderVenom]

Personally i'd remove some of the wood from the milled land at the end of the fingerboard, but thats a pretty skiled job.

Hence why I prefer to attack the nut - I don't consider myself skilled to go messing around with wood and files.

One word of warning: a common error is to sett the nut height while there is too much relief in the neck. Then when the neck is straightened up, the string buzzes on the first fret.

I assess the nut height with the neck dead straight (particularly important on a Les Paul as the truss rods active footprint extends beyond the nut), then pop a little relief back in after I've finished.

So I should set the nut height based on the neck being dead straight, as opposed to setting relief where I want it and lowering the nut based on that?