Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

[Guitar Toad]

I have just enough knowledge and experience to know that I started out wrong. I am no expert. I still have a lot to learn. But, here's my brief story of getting started in trying to learn music theory on my own.

About 18 months ago I bought a new guitar. It’s my first guitar since selling off all my stuff 16 years ago. I knew the most basic stuff about music. I knew the notes of the musical staff. I knew the difference between a sharp and a flat. I knew crescendo and decrescendo and what an arpeggio is. I remembered some boxes for learning scales. When I was younger I just wanted to learn how to play songs. I took lessons and then got to the point where I could figure out most AC/DC songs by ear. I still needed to have someone show me the lead parts. I couldn’t figure those out. And I guess I was too impatient to take learning music theory very seriously.

Now, fast forward to the present...I wanted a self-guided learning method. I was too busy for lessons, besides I didn’t want the pressure of a teacher watching me stumble around and playing notes and chords. I started looking around the internet and asking questions about the pentatonic and scales. I decided that I wanted to learn more serious music theory, but not too much. So I started with the pentatonic. The fewer notes must be easier than the full major scale right? Then, folks “in the know” start telling me about modes and I start getting the idea that modes are really important. Then, I learn that there’s major pentatonic, minor pentatonic, and blues pentatonic scales. I chose A blues pentatonic as a starting point, and I start working with that learning and teaching my fingers where all the notes are on the fretboard. It’s been a worthwhile method. I’m learning where the notes are. But forget notes. Modes are where it’s at man. I was learning but it just wasn’t getting all the relationships right between scales and modes and chords and melody and harmony.

Alas my free-flowing, unstructured, self-directed program has been faulty. Shock! Horror! Incredible.

Recently, I've been told that my focus on modes is the wrong focus. And I am quite thankful for the liberation that has given me. A more important and better focus is to learn chording and chord construction to enable chord tone melody and solo improvisation. After that is learned, then one may begin discussion and thinking about modes.

I have learned a great deal about guitar playing over this past year. My learning regime might have been a bit more productive if I had a better start. I guess it's my own fault for not taking lessons or not buying that Frank Gambale DVD that gets such good reviews. But, then I didn't want to be forced into learning at a pace that I wasn't comfortable with. I wanted a well directed, self-constructed, self-teaching method. Now, that's funny. But, I'm not the only one that does this. There are folks all over the internet like this…There is something to be said about the comfort of learning at one’s own pace. But, there's also merit to lessons and playing with other who can see and hear what you play to make suggestions to improve.

All this to say…with my thirty minutes of experience with music theory …learning about chord construction and chord tone playing is where the real learning is. As I have been directed by former member Seafoamer and forum members such as Tone4Days, Osensei, GandLMan, BungelowBill and others.

Learning chord construction and the extensions is the way to learn how to use the notes in the boxes. If your struggling with modes right now. Forget modes for a while and just learn scales and chord theory and you will get to where you want to be faster than simply trying to play and memorize the notes of a certain mode.

I really have Mr. Osensei to thank for slapping me around and setting me straight.

[bungalowbill]

I can't remember what famous player said this , but it really hits home for me....."learn everything you can, then forget about it and just play." I believe in this because music isn't a recipe or chemical formula..... it's nice to know all the ingredients, it's also nice to mix them up into your own creation.

[Al.C]

Reminds me of my jazz based lesions over 25 yrs ago. My teacher had me "resolving arpegios". Now I am not a stupid guy but this just gave me a headache. Enough was enough and I stopped taking lesions. Years later I met my old teacher and told him that the "resolving arpegios" forced me over the edge. His response was that players never really think about that when they play anyway!!!!
Along the same lines the funniest thing I heard was listening to Robben Ford on an instructional cd talk about his playing on Revelation. THe book went over the harmonic choices that can be used at various points in the song, all the modal options and different scalar options. Then on the CD Robben admits that when he recorded the song he didn't even know the chord progression, he just played!!

[tone4days]

yeah, i think that there is a point where you have to say to yourself 'yunno, i am agonizing over whether to paint the walls eggshell white or butterfrost white, but i have this nagging feeling that the foudnation for this house really isnt all that stable" ... knowing how to construct diatonic scales and the chords constructed from them is really the best way to start out ... getting the sound of the intervals deep into your bones ... getting the muscle memory down for all keys in numerous positions ... once you have a solid foundation, you can start into dissecting and reassembling arpeggios, modes, advanced harmonization, etc

have fun - enjoy the ride - there is no destination

cheers
t4d

ps - i am tempted to recall that old line 'the defendent that represents himself in court has a fool for a client' ... likewise, the self taught certainly do not have a knowledgable professor

[Guitar Toad]

Learning is fun. Exciting. Discovery is great. Small and great alike are signs of progress and gaining ground. And I'm having fun in the process. It's gotta be fun. You know I guess I get turned off of virtuoso DVD's. Perhaps the Frank Gambale is good one. But, I have the expectation that there will be a little bit of theory and then he'll say something like..."once you have that down you can do this." Then plays a lighting fast riff that he's been working on for 25 years. "Just like this." Then I sit watch thinking "ya right. Just like that. Easy for you to say." LOL.

[tone4days]

lol - yup - and its even worse when you study with him in person .. .but it is all good and inspiring ... i found don mock's and robben ford's learning tapes about 'the blues and beyond' or 'the blues from rock to jazz' to be alot less intimidating and therefor more helpful .. it still requires alot of 'pause-rewind-replay' but at least its doable

[LesStrat]

Bill, you have a point. However, it should be emphasized that there should be a good match between the teacher and the student.

I took piano lessons for 9 months. The teacher was teaching me what she wanted to teach. For example, she started by teaching me to read music. This was a colossal waste of time. Not because it lacks importance.

I was a third year band student. I already knew how to read.

OTOH, I took a piano class for one quarter at the university level. The professor taught me more in 3 months than I had learned in the years previous, including the wasted time with the teacher. He taught me what I needed to learn, not what he needed to teach.

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

I have learned to read, to write sheet stuff, learned to structure chords, knocked myself senseless with a bloody metronome, scales whales armageddos arpeggios scarfettos....phhh
"Correct" fingerings, classical stuff as well, then I had a teacher some 17 years ago, he said, sit in at one of our practise sessions, just listen and watch, I did that, he learned me a few Carlton things as well, forget what you have learned he said, you are not going to write sheet music, nor play it, neither are you going to be anything but who you are....it worked for me, I have simply used my ears since then, and just for the last 4-5 years have I really let it all go, I still practise rhythm, mostly just keeping a groove, and to keep the "swing" and feel for it.
One thing I can never get enough of is chords
I just play now, have no worries or anything about anymore, I play what I hear in my head, and that is where ever I like it or not, it is what comes out, it has turned into a feel thing now.
An excuse to be loose
But I like it.

[Guitar Toad]

ps - i am tempted to recall that old line 'the defendent that represents himself in court has a fool for a client' ... likewise, the self taught certainly do not have a knowledgable professor

My teacher has been very unprepared. I wish I could fire him, but I'm patient. He's slowly getting his act together. One thing is sure though...I'm sure glad to have access to a some able consultants to check his methods when I need it.

I've given up the dream of playing in arenas. Maybe one day I do hope to play local clubs or party gigs. I'm mostly in it for fun as a hobby. My demands and goals aren't too high at the moment. So far I have a willing audience of three at home who are willing to deal with my practicing. So far so good.

**if I can just get those maj7th+11's and +13's, etc. nailed down, I'm sure I could score a sweet record deal.**

[bungalowbill]

My teacher has been very unprepared. I wish I could fire him. He's slowly getting his act together. One thing is sure though...I'm sure glad to have access to a some able consultants for correctives when I need it.

I've given up the dream of playing in arenas. Maybe one day I do hope to play local clubs or party gigs. I'm mostly in it for fun as a hobby. My demands and goals aren't too high at the moment.

Todd, If you drive to the Lou, you can sit in with my band anytime. It will give you an idea of what it's like to apply what you know in context. Man, it is so much fun....I can't explain the feeling, you have to experience it for yourself.

[Guitar Toad]

Todd, If you drive to the Lou, you can sit in with my band anytime. It will give you an idea of what it's like to apply what you know in context. Man, it is so much fun....I can't explain the feeling, you have to experience it for yourself.

Joe, one of these days I'll take you up on that offer. That would be way cool.

[bungalowbill]

Joe, one of these days I'll take you up on that offer. That would be way cool.

Shoot me a PM with the tunes you would be comfortable with, when you are ready to give her a go. I would be honored if you would sit in.

[Osensei]

LOL! Toad! It's like being a white belt in a karate dojo. They teach you the basic blocks and how to place your hand on your hip when you punch! Then when the first tournament comes around they throw you into the ring! It's somewhere about the time when the fists start flying that you start to realize, "hum? Maybe this hand on the hip thing really isn't a good Idea!". And maybe just maybe I could get out of the way alot quicker if I'm not in a low Zenkutsu Datchi (stance) like we practice in the dojo.

When you get into a realtime playing situation (live performance or just practicing with some cats that are more advanced than you) the need to survive will quickly teach you where you can stick your theory! That's not to say that the theory won't work! I'm just saying that the player often has to get slapped around a little by some real-life experience before they get to use it.

Just like the karate guy, once you get into a real-life situation you'll find that you won't have time to think. Likewise shooting a paper target at a gun range is not the same as being shot at by a perp that's trying to kill you! Everthing that you have prepared for ahead of time just seems to be irretrievable by your brain when you need it the most.

But as you gain real-life experience you'll find that time will begin to slow down (figuratively). Your mind will start to catch up! Your adrenaline will eventually be put to better use than to simply SCARE THE HELL OUT OF YOU! Then you will be able to apply your theory more effectively!

TIP - To play an arena you just need a boob job and an apple bottom if you're a chick/other! Or be a pretty boy like Justin! If you're ugly then spike your hair, wear black spiked dog collars and wristbands and get tattoos and piercings all over your body! The idea is to get people to masterbate! Not to actually get them to listen to music! Then you'll be a STAR!

[Osensei]

Todd, If you drive to the Lou, you can sit in with my band anytime. It will give you an idea of what it's like to apply what you know in context. Man, it is so much fun....I can't explain the feeling, you have to experience it for yourself.

+1, The answer is always ... play your way out! Either take him up on it or find some cats to practice with. Real life is always stranger than theory as well as fiction!

[Guitar Toad]

Understanding is one thing, while mastery is quite another. I'm learning some good information. I have some friends that play here in town, I need to get together with them and jam. Even if it's one guy playing 12 bar blues so another guy can play over it. I did play one gig in high school. I played bass on a couple songs, and rhythm guitar on a couple other tunes. That was a lot a fun.

I do feel like I'm making good progress jamming with CD's. But, soon, I'm gonna need to start playing out with other. I need to believe those who say that's where the real progress happens. It's gotta be true. Experience is the best teacher.

[Guitar Toad]

How would you guys recommend using/learning chord tone playing? Do you recommend simply using the barre chord and moveable chord forms? That seems easy enough. Or do you learn teach yourself where the major chord 1-3-5 tones are for a given chord on each string? I'm sure it's combination of both. That way a guy learns to be a vertical and a horizontal player. Once your ear knows and you have the finger memory, and if I know some chord construction, then every thing else could be done on the fly by ear relative to the major chord knowledge.

From elsewhere:

All chord tones sound good, but the 3rd and 7th degrees define a chord's texture and will make for the strongest sound. These are often referred to as guide tones or color tones.

[tone4days]

for the longest time, all i knew (in addition to open 'cowboy' chords) was barre chords for majors, minors, major sevenths, minor sevenths, and dominant sevenths .. i knew the 'E' form and the "A' form for all of these ... and for rock, even fancy progressive rock, i was in pretty good shape

my playing took off to a next plateau (rut buster!) when i learned more chords that were technically harder to finger, but sounded way better

al dimeola and bob aslanian had a book called (something like) 'guide to chords, scales, and arpeggios' ... it had alot of good chord shapes in it and a cool way to tie all the stuff together - even had a 'schedule' to it (i.e. do this week 1, do this week 2, etc) ... in addition, taking lessons helped alot because my teacher showed me all these great grips that were really useful as i first was cracking open a 'real book' and trying to comp intelligently ...

the next big leap came when i started only playing a few notes per chord instead of trying to play them all ... the 1 and the 5 of a chord are usually the least interesting tones, especially given that the bassist and other comping instruments will be grabbing those ... the redundancy has its place in a rock or blues setting, but once you want to step out to more complex (harmonically) music, you see why the 3s, 7s, and extended tones are where it's at

good luck - have fun
t4d

[Osensei]

So Toad, is it safe to assume that you have taken the advise from the forum and it has yielded positive results in you playing? Give us an update.

[Guitar Toad]

Well, yes. I am taking the advise. It's improved my playing. I can string together better sounding notes together much more effectively than prior to implementing the chord tone methodology. It's a paradigm shift for me. At the moment, I have my playing has slowed down. Not that I was a lightning fast player. But, I having to be purposeful and measured with my note selection. I just need to figure out how to be efficient with my thinking and playing.

Before, I was just trying to learn how to string together random notes of a pentatonic scale. But, I wasn't thinking in terms of tones R, 3rd, 5th. That's what I'm presently working to figure out. Now, how do I teach myself and learn to think in terms of chord tones?

I may just need to sit down for a bit with a pencil and paper and music paper and fretboard diagrams and map out R-3-5-7th chords up and down the neck. That's the approach I need to take as far as I can tell from my present vantage point. I need to really learn it so I can forget it.

[Lewguitar]

I never play anything that I don't hear in my head.

That's all I play: what I hear.

If I don't hear it, I don't play it.

Otherwise, it's my fingers doing the playing and not me.

I don't think of my fingers as being particularly soulful or creative...I just want them to do what I tell them to do and not "think" for themselves!

I hear so many guys whos fingers are just playing patterns...over and over.

Lew