Warren Buffett donates to the Gates foundation.

[Arkitkt]

The paper trail indicates the Benjamin Franklin insisted upon starting each meeting of the continental congress with a prayer. It was ok for the founding fathers to pray about the laws they would write, but now it's not ok to pray in or at a school.

Since when it is illegal to pray in school?
It is only illegal if a school sanctions prayer, for example during official school functions, because allowing one religious group to pray while prohibiting others to do the same would show a preference towards one religious group over others. Since a public institution can not show a preference ("establishing religion"), that would be unconstitutional. (IMHO)

If you don't like that limitation, you can attend a public school.

[big_black]

"A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district - all studied and appreciated as they merit - are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty." -- Benjamin Franklin

What does the prove?

Treaty of Tripoli (1797)...unanimously approved by Congress:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


It's pretty good indication of what the Framers had in mind when designing our governement.

[Skarekrough]

Maybe "unconstitutional" was the wrong term, but it certainly violates the spirit of what this country was founded upon.

Well, technically the country was founded by the Puritans, a frumpy bunch of Cretins that were universally disliked primarily for their inability to know what a good time was if it were sitting on thier face but also their downright alarming willingness to suffer in grand ways for their own beliefs and values.

No one really liked them, as was covered before, and rather than have them removed off the face of the Earth entirely they came to America, a place far enough removed from everything that their incessant need for self-loathing as a utility to become one closer to God that their cries would be almost wholly unheard of.

Indeed it's the fundamentals that founded this country. So one doesn't really have to wonder why they've done so much in the past 26 years specifically to take it back. Between the Meese Commission, Janets Titty on the Telly, Super-Churches and federally-funded faith-based inititatives that actually do more harm than good it's been a good ride. Of their tactics has been the landscape of intolerance for anyone who not so much believes differently, but anyone who dares speak out about it in the name of inclusion within that country.

Its been a long time coming. But the fact of the matter is that every day groups work harder to rob us of our tools to bring equality injustices to the public eye. Every day they gain a little more ground in the battle to mandate what they feel is right and acceptable. And every day it gets a little harder to breathe if you're not a white Catholic.

America has a long tradition, aside from the Puritans, of folks that have stood up and said "You know what....**** you. This isn't right and since this is a place I call my home I'm going to do something about it."

Every day I drove to work past the Lexington Commons where some of the most ornery near-Anarchists got together to collectively tell the government to go **** themselves. I thought about the dedication they had for their country, to go to war for it, to stand up straight and look someone in the eye and pull a trigger. I'm not sure I have that sort of thing in me.

But don't confuse my liberalism for weakness. I may abhor the lack of gun laws in the country but you'd better damned well believe that all the Starbucks that got put up fuel the little bit I do every night to take back MY country from those that feel it should be something non-inclusive and inherently evil.

If were really at a war with fundamentalists then we ought to start deploying troops to those deep pockets that refuse to acknowledge that they got where they are by the forces working AGAINST with whom they claim to identify with.

[big_black]

(Ignore the legality thing about Nazi Germany then)
People who get married are getting benefits that I believe don't extend to them, like the right to adopt children, or "easier access" to that right.

You don't have to be married to adopt a child.

Also, I don't think they should get to claim each other on taxes, etc, just because they're in bed with each other. Granted, it was their choice. But I still think it's ridiculous and it's going to cause the destruction of our country. Remember Soddom? And yes, it's a religious view. I've been trying to stay out of this because, like I said, it's a social law, therefore let society do as it wants. Those who still have morals in this country can only prevent the nation from sliding into depravity for so long.
So now you know what I believe.

I don't remember Soddom. It was before my time (yours too).

Religion as a sole basis for law is unconstitutional. Try and argue that in the courts.

[Skarekrough]

"A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district - all studied and appreciated as they merit - are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty." -- Benjamin Franklin

Please....you do a dis-service to the framers of the Constitution by attempting to apply their words verbatim.

See, they understood that times change...and that's why their are amendments.

This whole thing....it's a big experiment. It was a few ideas, some concepts and a dash of "hell if I know if it's got legs..."

I highly doubt that you apply the Bible to your daily life verbatim either....

[neosadist]

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Of course it wasn't founded on a religion. It was founded by religious men. There's a difference.

[big_black]

"I keep the bible in a pool of blood so it's lies can never affect me" - Tom Araya

\m/

[JB_From_Hell]

Of course it wasn't founded on a religion. It was founded by religious men.

.... who said KEEP RELIGION OUT OF IT.

Again, even when the point of the message is bold (and even a different freakin' color!!!), you miss it.

[big_black]

Of course it wasn't founded on a religion. It was founded by religious men. There's a difference.

What is the leagal basis for a ban on same-sex marriage then?

(NO TALK OF CHILDREN, ANIMALS, OR ANY OTHER SMOKESCREEN TACTICS)

[neosadist]

Well, if you promise to read my whole post, I'll try. 1. Israel gets most of their weapons for free from the USA. I don't know if your numbers include that. They also probably do not include the massive amounts of donations made by Jews around the world to Israel. If you can show me a link showing that all of this is included in the Import/Export numbers, I stand corrected. 2. What other purpose than fighting with the do weapons serve? If you sell guns to a country where a civil war is going on, these weapons will be used. By selling the weapons, you're supporting the war. 3. Here are just 2 examples I can think off right away. There's more. By the way, I was talking about political or business interests.
- Just last week there were news reports about the victory of an anti-US warlord's faction in Somalia. The factions that were fighting him were openly sponsored by the US. I won't get into the morality or legality of this, just stating what was reported - The dude currently in charge in Nigeria came to power by overthrowing the government in power before. Afterwards, he sold exclusive oil rights to BP/Shell. The people living in the place were they drilled for oil were driven out of their lands or simply killed.

1) You have no documentation that such donations are going on, how are the census bureaus going to have documentation of it?
2) "Locks are to keep honest people honest". Think similar to that. Having guns doesn't mean you must use them.
3) Where's the proof for the last two items? I'd like to see it.

[Guitar Toad]

Since when it is illegal to pray in school?
It is only illegal if a school sanctions prayer, for example during official school functions, because allowing one religious group to pray while prohibiting others to do the same would show a preference towards one religious group over others. Since a public institution can not show a preference ("establishing religion"), that would be unconstitutional. (IMHO)

If you don't like that limitation, you can attend a public school.

Your right. It's not illegal yet. But, there's a whole lot of complaining about it. And, there are groups actively seeking to remove any Christian expression in the schools and the public forum in general. Invocations at graduation ceremonies have been curbed. If nothing else, activist groups embroil local school districts into legal battles that effectively drains the educational budgets by the legal battles that go on.

[neosadist]

Words of one who follows a man who preached tolerance and acceptance.

The same Man who, by virtue of the Trinity, as being God He was also responsible for personally destroying Soddom.

Matthew 10:
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

[Arkitkt]

What is the leagal basis for a ban on same-sex marriage then?

(NO TALK OF CHILDREN, ANIMALS, OR ANY OTHER SMOKESCREEN TACTICS)

The topic IS a smokescreen. Nobody will be talking about it come December.

[JB_From_Hell]

The same Man who, by virtue of the Trinity, as being God He was also responsible for personally destroying Soddom.

Matthew 10:
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

So Jesus is a bigot, too? Lotsa angst.

[Guitar Toad]

.... who said KEEP RELIGION OUT OF IT.

Again, even when the point of the message is bold (and even a different freakin' color!!!), you miss it.

Originally, the amercan idea for separating church and state was to keep the government out of the church. In England, historically, the King was head of the church. In fact, in England, if and when Charles becomes King of England he will be head of the Anglican church. I think that's right. The founding fathers wanted to avoid that arrangement in this new country.

In the US, the argument in these modern times has turned that fear around.

[big_black]

In the US, the argument in these modern times has turned that fear around.

Obviously with good reason. This place is on the verge of becoming a very uncomfortable place if you are not straight.

I know many gay people.

You have no idea the hell you put these people through. Seriously.

[Guitar Toad]

Obviously with good reason. This place is on the verge of becoming a very uncomfortable place if you are not straight.

I know many gay people.

You have no idea the hell you put these people through. Seriously.

You who? I'm not responsible.

[JB_From_Hell]

You have no idea the hell you put these people through. Seriously.

Psssshhhh.... it's their own fault. You know they choose a lifestyle ripe with persecution and discrimination.

[Arkitkt]

1) You have no documentation that such donations are going on, how are the census bureaus going to have documentation of it?
2) "Locks are to keep honest people honest". Think similar to that. Having guns doesn't mean you must use them.
3) Where's the proof for the last two items? I'd like to see it.

1. Here you go. Donations to all kinds of organisations in Israel are tax-deductible. There's a ton more on Google.

2. That's a lame excuse. If you give weapons to people engaged in a war, they WILL use them.

3. As requested
Pick a news source of your liking.

[Arkitkt]

Your right. It's not illegal yet. But, there's a whole lot of complaining about it. And, there are groups actively seeking to remove any Christian expression in the schools and the public forum in general. Invocations at graduation ceremonies have been curbed. If nothing else, activist groups embroil local school districts into legal battles that effectively drains the educational budgets by the legal battles that go on.

Methinks most of the complaining is done by the People who want prayer in school.

Re. Graduation ceremonies: As far as I'm concerned, they can pray all they want at graduations. As long as a Jew, a Muslim, a Pagan and a Buddhist and a member of every other religious group represented can openly say a word of prayer as well. Oh, and don't forget the atheist, who will obviously be able to get behind the podium and proudly declare that there is no god.

It's either everybody or nobody.