Warren Buffett donates to the Gates foundation.

[big_black]

Ok, who's tying to deny people's civil rights? Who's trying to discriminte? Prove it so that the rest of us can spread this information so that these said evil people won't get voted into office. Don't just "well some people...". Being a responsible citizen means being informed and informing others also.

Well, there are some names mentioned here. You'd have to pull the roll to get the full vote list.

[neosadist]

That statement is soooo short sighted and shows your ignorance of history. Crack a textbook on cultural anthropology or something, then get back to us. You CANNOT discount Western involvement and the snowballing effect it has had.

"Failed government policies and political corruption have resulted in many widespread famines, and significant portions of Africa remain with distribution systems unable to disseminate enough food or water for the population to survive. What had before colonialism been the source for 90% of the world's gold had become the poorest continent on earth, its former riches enjoyed by those on other continents."

Hmm, so things almost sound better in the colonial era. Note: FAILED GOVERNMENTS and POLITICAL CORRUPTION caused the problem, not us. It plainly says that the "bad colonial" era showed that the nations could make money, even if for the "wrong" reasons. The past might be our problem, but the present is theirs.

"Extensive human rights abuses still occur in several parts of Africa, often under the oversight of the state."

Sounds like it's their governments that are failing to bring about change.

"Some areas, notably Botswana and South Africa, have experienced economic success, including the opening of the stock exchange. This is partly due to its wealth of natural resources, being the world's leading producer of both gold and diamonds, and partly due to its well-established legal system. South Africa also has access to financial capital, numerous markets and skilled labor."

So they CAN make things work on their own. It's not just our fault and not our obligation to fix things either. Seems like they're fixing them on their own.

"Nigeria sits on one of the largest proven oil reserves in the world and has the highest population among nations in Africa, with one of the fastest-growing economies in the world."

Wow, they're NOT oil-rich nations? I smell a lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa

[big_black]

In response to your sig, that wouldn't work, obviously. However, I don't think it's a religious dispute over marriage (and gays), it's a social dispute. Legally married means we go to someone in government to have it certified. They can define it how they wish. However, my desire is that it doesn't change from what God wanted in the first place. I can't really be socially active on that one because it's how society wants it, and you can't legislate morality any more than you can give people common sense.

That's right, it would never work. The point of my sig is that it's not about protecting marriage. If they wanted to protect marriage, they would enact laws to prevent dissolution. That phrase is propaganda. It's "hey...look over there while we take away these rights" (same-sex marriage is LEGAL in MA). Social Conservatives smelt the winds of change upon them and decided it was necessary to act (it's also a convenient smokescreen to cover up what is really going on in this country/world) . The goal is to oppress, nothing more.

Not a religious dispute? The only reason offered in opposition is because "God sez so". The only groups that offer opposition do so on religious grounds.

Once long ago, it was illegal for a black man to marry a white woman too you know.

[Jonny R]

If they wanted to protect marriage, they would enact laws to prevent dissolution.

"They" are. While other elements in society fought for no-fault divorce - but still wanted to call the relationship 'marriage' - Christian groups have created Covenant Marriage to return to the original intent of marriage; a commitment for life.

As an aside though, is there something that makes state recognition of your relationship a human right? If you're talking medical procedures etc, why not just amend power of attorney laws?

[LesStrat]

Tony Perkins successfully submitted a bill to the Louisiana Legislature when he was a state senator that established a covenant marriage law.

As I said earlier: These arguments aren't leaking; they've disintegrated the bucket.

[big_black]

As an aside though, is there something that makes state recognition of your relationship a human right? If you're talking medical procedures etc, why not just amend power of attorney laws?

We have something called Full Faith and Credit between states here. This was put in place so that residents would not have to get a driver's license in every state, get a marriage certificate, etc. Without an amendment to the Constitution, States may have to honor these out of state same-sex marriages. That is why there is a such a push at the federal level.

Marriage is a Civil Right. In this country we are guaranteed Liberty and the pursuit of happiness...same grounds interracial marriage bans where thrown out once people came to their senses.

Why amend anything? Let States decide. I am willing to at least settle on that.

Laws cannot be brought about in this country on a religious basis alone and still stand as Constitutional.

[JB_From_Hell]

Once long ago, it was illegal for a black man to marry a white woman too you know.

I bet there were people who claimed they weren't racist when they agreed with that, too.

[Arkitkt]

...Israel, despite being under constant attack, much less the constant racism against the Jews throughout all of history, is more than self-sustaining and self-protecting.

Then let's talk about how Russia and Syria were constantly selling Iraq more weapons than they could afford, putting the country into debt, when they historically what these weapons would be used for and that they'd probably get destroyed as a result.

1. Israel is neither self - sutaining nor self protecting. Without the massive influx of our tax $$ (mostly in the form of weaponry) there would be no Israel.

2. Russia is only the second largest arms dealer. The biggest is the USA. The Western Europeans are mnot far behind. Most of the weapons sold go to developing countries. (Mmmhhh, could that have something to do with the constant wars and uprisings??)

3. Re. the original topic: IMHO, if all developed countries would leave Africa alone (including the companies that really own most of Africa's resources, like oil, diamonds, minerals, etc.), Africa would be much better off than it is now, even without Bono and Warren Buffett.

Have you ever thought about why there is constant fighting between groups, factions and tribes in Africa. Do you think it is simply because Africans are primitive or just enjoy killing each other?? If there's two groups fighting anywhere in Africa, you can bet your behind that at least one of them is sponsored by political or business interest in the developed world.


Anywhooo - kudos to Mr. Buffett.

[Jonny R]

Marriage is a Civil Right.

Why? What makes it so?

Just interested to hear your thoughts on what makes it so...

[Arkitkt]

"They" are. While other elements in society fought for no-fault divorce - but still wanted to call the relationship 'marriage' - Christian groups have created Covenant Marriage to return to the original intent of marriage; a commitment for life....

So what happens if a couple that got married under these rules later decides to get a divorce anyway? Will they get kicked out of their church??

[Jonny R]

Have you ever thought about why there is constant fighting between groups, factions and tribes in Africa. Do you think it is simply because Africans are primitive or just enjoy killing each other?? If there's two groups fighting anywhere in Africa, you can bet your behind that at least one of them is sponsored by political or business interest in the developed world.

Hang on dude, it's not like this wasn't going on before Europeans. Even the recent conflicts in places like Congo are between tribes that have conflicted for incredibly long times. As with genocidal behaviour in Africa.

[Jonny R]

So what happens if a couple that got married under these rules later decides to get a divorce anyway? Will they get kicked out of their church??

That's not the nature of it. It's a stronger legal contract, from what I understand.

[Arkitkt]

Hang on dude, it's not like this wasn't going on before Europeans. Even the recent conflicts in places like Congo are between tribes that have conflicted for incredibly long times. As with genocidal behaviour in Africa.

True, but I still maintain my point that developed countries choose sides in these tribal conflicts because of political or business interest.

Some light reading?

[Arkitkt]

That's not the nature of it. It's a stronger legal contract, from what I understand.

Not going to work. The Roman Catholic Church has penalized divorced people for a very long time, but Catolics still get divorced at roughly the same rate as anyone else.

[Jonny R]

Not going to work. The Roman Catholic Church has penalized divorced people for a very long time, but Catolics still get divorced at roughly the same rate as anyone else.

Divorce rates have accelerated since no-fault divorce was introduced, but gradually, including in line with changing expectations.

It would therefore be unreasonable to expect the reverse changes to occur instantly, one would imagine, rather than over time.

But covenant marriage is not between the people and the church - it's back to the same strength of legal contract that existed prior to no-fault divorce. Between the two parties. I believe there are few exit clauses, such as marital unfaithfulness.

It's one prong in the church's work to re-establish marriage as a strong institution for life-long commitment, with others including better support for married couples, help in conflict resolution etc.

[Jonny R]

True, but I still maintain my point that developed countries choose sides in these tribal conflicts because of political or business interest.

Some light reading?

True true. Tutsi/Hutu were the names I was looking for, as described, a conflict spanning centuries.

A bunch of my friends grew up in the then Zaire...interesting stories.

[Arkitkt]

Divorce rates have accelerated since no-fault divorce was introduced, but gradually, including in line with changing expectations.

It would therefore be unreasonable to expect the reverse changes to occur instantly, one would imagine, rather than over time.

I happen to think that a divorce, while certainly painful to all involved, is still better than a broken marriage, simply continued because of fear of legal complications.
There is not always one partner at fault when a marriage gets out of control.

(This really doesn't have much to do with Warren Buffet, though )

[Arkitkt]

True true. Tutsi/Hutu were the names I was looking for, as described, a conflict spanning centuries...

..which intensified when the colonial powers took sides and selected the Tutsis as their helpers in suppressing the Hutus. (It's all on that web site)

[Jonny R]

I happen to think that a divorce, while certainly painful to all involved, is still better than a broken marriage, simply continued because of fear of legal complications.
There is not always one partner at fault when a marriage gets out of control.

Sure, but I know some great married couples that at one stage were incredibly broken. At that times, only their life-long commitment kept them together - because they decided their word was solid.

Their marriages were repaired and they're amazing couples now, ones that other people look to for inspiration.

(This really doesn't have much to do with Warren Buffet, though )

It's a veritable buffet of topics, this thread.

[Arkitkt]

Sure, but I know some great married couples that at one stage were incredibly broken. At that times, only their life-long commitment kept them together - because they decided their word was solid...

While commendable, that's not really exclusive to Christian couples. I made the same commitment when I married Mrs. Arkitkt 12 years ago and we're not exactly the most christian of couples.

It's a veritable buffet of topics, this thread.

Are you going LesStrat on me here??