Is There A God?

[Blue Calx]

You know, we don't have to strictly limit this process to biological evolution. It's just simple cause and effect. Continents still drift, for example. Do people notice it? No, it's happening way too slowly, but it's changed the face of our planet over the course of the ages. Of course, if you didn't know that, you'd assume that god made the continents and placed them where they are today. THIS IS EVOLUTION! Cause and effect add up over the years, even very small, seemingly unimportant changes will have a drastic, broader reaching effect way down the line. It happens with the continents, it happens with our atmosphere, and it happens with plants and animals just the same. We are not exempt from the laws of physics, so why would we not change over time if our essential makeup is varied ever so slightly each time we reproduce?

And let's please try and keep this civil.

[Robert Delahunt]

Of course, it's the same thing... it's DNA changing to ebnable survival in a changing environment. And did you read the whole post? People ARE changing.

The number of chromosomes isn't changing, however. Everything changes, but we're not evolving, which is what you were trying to infer. Even if we were, the most highly regarded evolutionists admit that it's too slow to notice.

[Robert Delahunt]

You know, we don't have to strictly limit this process to biological evolution. It's just simple cause and effect. Continents still drift, for example. Do people notice it? No, it's happening way too slowly, but it's changed the face of our planet over the course of the ages. Of course, if you didn't know that, you'd assume that god made the continents and placed them where they are today. THIS IS EVOLUTION! Cause and effect add up over the years, even very small, seemingly unimportant changes will have a drastic, broader reaching effect way down the line. It happens with the continents, it happens with our atmosphere, and it happens with plants and animals just the same. We are not exempt from the laws of physics, so why would we not change over time if our essential makeup is varied ever so slightly each time we reproduce?

Seismologists notice the drift. They have the statistics to back it up. Drifting seismic plates isn't evolution, it's just huge moving plates. Now if one of those plates develops consciousness, sure, then we'll talk.

[davedvdy]

People ARE changing.

That still does not prove the theory of Human Evolution, that is, evolving from Apes.

[firebirdVII]

Like the couple times evolutionists have based an entire supposed skeleton recreation on one or two bones? The Piltdown Scandal is a good one to examine.

I'm only trying to show the truth. I think it's totally unacceptable that those who consider themselves part of the evolution crowd tend to slam and belittle anyone that believes differently than they do. My favorite illogical insult they use is the "Christians are close minded". The pot, once again, calls the kettle black. It's the same fun thing with the movie Inherit the Wind about the infamous Scopes Monkey Trial. Ironic how the real trial ended as a loss to the evolution crowd but the movie paints the total opposite picture. It's amazing what you can get people to believe just because they saw it on television.

What I would appreciate is people getting off their high horses (those who seem permanently attached to their high horses have already been added to my ignore list) and instead think and discuss. I'm sick of the stereotyping and such. If you want to talk truth and proofs, I'm all for that, but otherwise I'll just keep pulling the evil rabbits of common sense and truth out of my proverbial hat. It's not hard to make evolution look like a stupid belief if you know how, and the same goes for Creation: all you need is to be good at arguing (as opposed to discussing).

Yeah, I didn't post about most of what you mentioned in your post, and I can't really find anything that you used that directly goes against what I stated which was that there is a lot more evidence to support evolution than there is going for creationism. One skeleton doesn't really do much, there are still many transitional fossils and studies that support evolution.

[Gearjoneser]

That bacteria thing is not the same evolution of man that I was talking about that isn't still repeating....

The bacteria thing is the same.....just faster, and more observable in a lab.
It doesn't repeat, it's a long process. This is a funny fact, but did you know that when early man started to form relationships, people began to have sex face to face, rather than doggystyle. Over a few thousand years, the female body evolved to accomodate this more easily. The vaqina shifted forward on the female human body.

And a rib bone to make females......Pulleeeez. That was a genetic mutation that repeated itself, most likely starting with a small village, and spreading outward until all males were missing a rib. There's no sperm or eggs in a rib bone.

[nuntius]

That was a genetic mutation that repeated itself, most likely starting with a small village, and spreading outward until all males were missing a rib. There's no sperm or eggs in a rib bone.

All males are missing a rib? That's new news to me.

[Blue Calx]

Seismologists notice the drift. They have the statistics to back it up. Drifting seismic plates isn't evolution, it's just huge moving plates. Now if one of those plates develops consciousness, sure, then we'll talk.

I'm not talking about the plates relative only to themselves, I'm talking about the face of the earth overall. It's changing, and it's changing due to physical processes that, while different than the ones which eventually resulted in our developing into ridiculously complex, conscious beings able to ask questions such as these, the nature of change itself remains the same in both examples. Small causes add up over time and equal big effects in the long run. THAT is evolution. Whether a huge mass of rock ever develops consciousness, or even if it just sits there and gets eroded away by water, this change is fascinating and I know I'm going out on a limb by saying this, but I fail to see the difference.

[RW James]

The number of chromosomes isn't changing, however. Everything changes, but we're not evolving, which is what you were trying to infer. Even if we were, the most highly regarded evolutionists admit that it's too slow to notice.

Yeah - chromosome numbers do change. This is a hard one since it's an integer - but we all have random chromosome changes within us - it's just that most of them are not viable.

And yeah evolution is slow - but we're talking millions of years here. Just because we can't wrap our little minds around a time span of that significance dowesn't mean that God can't. I think He is capable of a lot more than we give Him credit for. Too often we try to put Him in a little box that makes us feel comfortable - but that just doesn't work.

You also mentioned

I think it's totally unacceptable that those who consider themselves part of the evolution crowd tend to slam and belittle anyone that believes differently than they do. My favorite illogical insult they use is the "Christians are close minded".

I totally agree. But even more disturbing to me is the attitude of many Christians against thinking individuals that happen to have a deep and abiding faith in their Creator. I go to church every Sunday and cringe when I hear some of these people openly laugh at others for their scientific understanding. Where's the love?

I have never said that I do not believe in the redeeming power of my savior and lord which is the whole point of our faith - and yet I am belittled because I believe my Creator is capable of using the laws of physics (which He also created) to His purpose. This should not happen between Christians.

[LesStrat]

It's a whole lot easier to believe that billions of unrelated cells accidently formed into a complete organism.

[davedvdy]

The bacteria thing is the same.....just faster, and more observable in a lab.
It doesn't repeat, it's a long process. This is a funny fact, but did you know that when early man started to form relationships, people began to have sex face to face, rather than doggystyle. Over a few thousand years, the female body evolved to accomodate this more easily. The vaqina shifted forward on the female human body.

And a rib bone to make females......Pulleeeez. That was a genetic mutation that repeated itself, most likely starting with a small village, and spreading outward until all males were missing a rib. There's no sperm or eggs in a rib bone.

The bacteria thing is still a different evolution. You can't see the process of bacteria and form a factual conclusion that a human has evolved from an Ape. You are talking about a species evolving as opposed to a microorganism, there are only similarities in an evolution process.

As for the female anatomy thing...this still proves nothing with evolution from Apes.

[Jeff Dunne]

I don't get how politics can be banned and religion isn't - people get more stirred up about the latter most often.

[exnihilo]

That still does not prove the theory of Human Evolution, that is, evolving from Apes.

and what, exactly, proves gods exsistence?

cg

[firebirdVII]

I don't get how politics can be banned and religion isn't - people get more stirred up about the latter most often.

This is why I'm leaving before I head off to school. Religion threads can be addictive.

[Fresno Bob]

This is a funny fact, but did you know that when early man started to form relationships, people began to have sex face to face, rather than doggystyle. Over a few thousand years, the female body evolved to accomodate this more easily. The vaqina shifted forward on the female human body.

lol, wonder how their facial structures will change over time.

[Gearjoneser]

That still does not prove the theory of Human Evolution, that is, evolving from Apes.

Why do Christians have such a hard time with the idea that we're part of the same family that all the apes belong to? We're practically identical, only we're at the top of the ladder. Christians keep screaming "we don't have the missing link." If we're talking about hundreds of thousands of years, that missing link is neither here nor there......it's a stream of logic that you must follow.

Imagine that humans are the highest branch on a tree. It took a lot of genetic mutations and adaptations to go from the trunk to the tip. Assume that the whole ape/monkey family are the branches leading to the top. Now, take into consideration that the center of the tree is the fittest survivors, while the branches that are old and broken are the unfit. There were plenty of apes that were genetically weak and couldn't survive, and very likely killed and eaten by the ones that would survive. Eventually, we all branched out in a direction that allowed us to survive. The missing link you're looking for was a weak non-survivor in the ape family.....basically a branch that fell off the tree. This was thousands of years ago, so you're not going to find it.
The only thing you'll find now is that apes and monkeys are immitating us and growing wiser over a slow process. There's film footage of apes doing things that they never did, even 100 years ago. Evolution presses on, and we can observe it moving very slowly, but the earth has nothing but time.

The missing link may be erased, but don't think for a minute that you aren't a part of that family. You were evolved in the ape's image, not created in god's image. It's a hard pill to swallow, but go to the zoo and observe them someday. You'll see that they're a less sophisticated version of us. It's the stream of logic that you've got to focus on, to see things clearly.

This is the closest we've gotten.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/sci/tech/726597.stm

[davedvdy]

and what, exactly, proves gods exsistence?

cg

Do you look at a painting and question whether there was an artist that created it?

[firebirdVII]

That still does not prove the theory of Human Evolution, that is, evolving from Apes.

Evolution is a pretty big topic. You probably won't get a very good answer from anyone short of an evolutionary biologist. My answer (coming from someone who likes physics and math, not a bio person) is that we have fossils of upright and semi upright animals/people (eventually people as we know them) from way back. But as I have said, it's a lot more complicated than that.

[LesStrat]

That "stream of logic" has a dam in the middle of it, Joe. The gap is a major flaw.

Does that mean that people do not evolve? Beats me. But it certainly makes it harder to believe that the apes were part of the process. Besides, why are there still apes?

Maybe man once resembled the apes, but I don't think man WAS an ape.

Scracth that. I know a few who are STILL apes.

[firebirdVII]

That "stream of logic" has a dam in the middle of it, Joe. The gap is a major flaw.

Does that mean that people do not evolve? Beats me. But it certainly makes it harder to believe that the apes were part of the process. Besides, why are there still apes?

Maybe man once resembled the apes, but I don't think man WAS an ape.

Scracth that. I know a few who are STILL apes.

Evolution occurs when a creature could be better suited for its environment. Not all apes necessarily were in one location, etc...