Guys who sing against capitalism and the culture of consumption

[jdm61]

It is IMO a perversion of the American dream for the reasons stated above. Destroying others dreams unnecessarily only to further one´s own goals is corruption, not only hard work, and it doesn´t do much for the company´s image either. Not to mention treatment of employees... While this may admittedly not have been what he originally set out to do, it changes nothing about the idea having been perverted somewhere along the line. I don´t think the American dream is to have millions of people boycotting you, either... Nor is the american dream to be a major factor in the loss of american Jobs...

Again, to an extent I agree... but what walmart once upon a time was and for yerars has been are either nonrelated, or it was a decision from the beginning to make money regardless of who gets trampled underfoot. Again, Levi´s and Vlasic are prime examples of the long term effects of such a business plan as Wal-Mart´s current one.



I see no correlation between either of these companies and Wal-mart, and I´m really trying.....



If anything lack of contact with Hollywood has warped my perspective, as I put a lot less value into entertainment and sensationalism thatn most of my US-based brethren. Who was the the forumite that´s proud not to own a TV again?



"The American Dream" the way I´ve understood it since childhood was to start with nothing, and through hard work and perseverence to become whatever you want to be. If Schwarzenegger is not a good example of that, then who after Eli Whitney, Samuel Colt, and Thomas Edison is?

Arnold didn't start with "nothing". My recollection is that he was from a decidedly middle class Austrian family. The big difference between him and the guys you mentioned is that he has produced nothing except for press clippings and sound bite. The Ikea comment may not be relevant because they do not have a presence her like in Europe. Think of a Home Depot or Lowes. Now take that store footprint, increse it by 50% and make it 3-4 stories tall. Now put it in every decent sized town in Western Europe selling very inexpensive furniture. Think he might have done some damage to few mom and pop furniture stores along the way? Part of the American Dream is to build a better mousetrap, and to quote Field of Dreams, "if you build it,they will come" Capitalism, baby......compete or die. Do you really thinkthat Wal Mart injured Levi Strauss? Wal Mart is one of their biggest customers (as is Target, selling the same line of jeans) By the way.......how many of the people who are boycotting Wal Mart actually shopped there on a regular basis?

[jdm61]

The ultimate irony is that the only reason that these guys can rant against capitalism and be heard by anyone other than their family, friends and neighbors who have to put up with them playing in the garage is BECAUSE of capitalism. No record deal? Then thank capitalist pig exploiters like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, the Yahoo and Google crews, etc, etc, etc for providing the technology and championing the cause of evil consumerism until the majority of household in the US have a computer with an internet connection And i bet you more than a few of them bought them from big box capitalist pig retailers like Sams Club, Best Buys, Comp USA, Office Depot, etc that have put a vast numberof small businesses out.

[big_black]

FYI - Being critical of something does not mean you are against it.

[Falstaff]

FYI - Being critical of something does not mean you are against it.

Yes it does. This is 2006. You are either 100% for something in its current state, or you are not only against it but are in favor of its antithesis. C'mon BB...you know better than that.

[Skarekrough]

The ultimate irony is that the only reason that these guys can rant against capitalism and be heard by anyone other than their family, friends and neighbors who have to put up with them playing in the garage is BECAUSE of capitalism. No record deal? Then thank capitalist pig exploiters like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, the Yahoo and Google crews, etc, etc, etc for providing the technology and championing the cause of evil consumerism until the majority of household in the US have a computer with an internet connection And i bet you more than a few of them bought them from big box capitalist pig retailers like Sams Club, Best Buys, Comp USA, Office Depot, etc that have put a vast numberof small businesses out.

...and again, if it involves the greater good is it still worth it to make the media?

I'm not quite getting the issue that's at hand here.....

Alot of folks ragged on Rage Against The Machine for being on Sony. But, alas, alot of fans went and dissected the lyrics and got educated about the things the band was talking about.

How many kids only learned about Kent State due to CSNY's "Ohio"? Does the fact that the track was released on a major label make it any less important or it's inevitable effect on the listeners worth any less?

In a sense, everything has to come from somewhere. I think the important thing is that a band has a conscience and puts its money where its mouth is as often as it can and makes a stance and consciously weighs its decisions in deference to the greater good.

Examining the consumer culture we have is a healthy thing. It's a common thing for alot of us to say "I have too much stuff." It's a reflection of the times we live in where we own more than we know what to do with.

There was a great bit in the book Microserfs about how employees of Microsoft around the campus didn't actually kayak, but they just owned them. Each garage had in it this nice high-end new-ish kayak that had hit the water a handfull of times tops and the reason why was due to the work ethic that was required by the company they worked for.

We constantly talk about GAS and the next big acquisition and wanting this and wanting that....but how many of us actually use our gear to its full potential? How many of us have played enough gigs to make the money back that we put into all that we've spent on guitars, amps, effects and other gadgets?

Having is nice...but I find it to be a short-lived pleasure alot of times.

I constantly see people buying and wanting to do things and owning more than they would need to do it, and not following through. Whether it's exercising or sports or playing music.....if it makes you smile then fine. But what if using it in some manner could not only make others smile but also potentially put money in your pocket?

[big_black]

I'm not quite getting the issue that's at hand here.....

This thread is an opportunity to talk trash and attempt to discredit those people who's politics do not align with your own through asinine assumptions and clueless generalizations.

[Falstaff]

This thread is an opportunity to talk trash and attempt to discredit those people who's politics do not align with your own through asinine assumptions and clueless generalizations.

It is?

[joelap]

If Schwarzenegger is not a good example of that, then who after Eli Whitney, Samuel Colt, and Thomas Edison is?

Oprah Winfrey.

I'm kidding Actually, if you know about her, not really. I think she's the another big example of rags to riches.

[jdm61]

This thread is an opportunity to talk trash and attempt to discredit those people who's politics do not align with your own through asinine assumptions and clueless generalizations.

Why is when anyone disagrees with you, whatever they say is "asinine" and "clueless"? i have noticed a pattern Actually, while i think that most of the people that we are talking about are whiney middle class brats who have never had any form of real hardship (just like me in case you were going to ask..lol) I will defend their right to complain about pretty much whatever they want.....THAT is the real American Dream. And ya know what? Occasionally I will even buy one of their CD's because i like the music enough that the politics of their lyrics don' get in the way of enjoyin the music most of the time. Neil Young, Pearl Jam and the first two Rage cd's are a good examples. This works for me because i'm not really looking to be educated politically by some 21 year old guitar player from Pasadena.

[jdm61]

...and again, if it involves the greater good is it still worth it to make the media?

I'm not quite getting the issue that's at hand here.....

Alot of folks ragged on Rage Against The Machine for being on Sony. But, alas, alot of fans went and dissected the lyrics and got educated about the things the band was talking about.

How many kids only learned about Kent State due to CSNY's "Ohio"? Does the fact that the track was released on a major label make it any less important or it's inevitable effect on the listeners worth any less?

In a sense, everything has to come from somewhere. I think the important thing is that a band has a conscience and puts its money where its mouth is as often as it can and makes a stance and consciously weighs its decisions in deference to the greater good.

Examining the consumer culture we have is a healthy thing. It's a common thing for alot of us to say "I have too much stuff." It's a reflection of the times we live in where we own more than we know what to do with.

There was a great bit in the book Microserfs about how employees of Microsoft around the campus didn't actually kayak, but they just owned them. Each garage had in it this nice high-end new-ish kayak that had hit the water a handfull of times tops and the reason why was due to the work ethic that was required by the company they worked for.

We constantly talk about GAS and the next big acquisition and wanting this and wanting that....but how many of us actually use our gear to its full potential? How many of us have played enough gigs to make the money back that we put into all that we've spent on guitars, amps, effects and other gadgets?

Having is nice...but I find it to be a short-lived pleasure alot of times.

I constantly see people buying and wanting to do things and owning more than they would need to do it, and not following through. Whether it's exercising or sports or playing music.....if it makes you smile then fine. But what if using it in some manner could not only make others smile but also potentially put money in your pocket?

Unfortunately, the "Greater Good" often involves someone getting stepped on......meet the new boss, same as the old boss If someone wants to buy way too much stuff, then so be it.

[big_black]

Why is when anyone disagrees with you, whatever they say is "asinine" and "clueless"? i have noticed a pattern Actually, while i think that most of the people that we are talking about are whiney middle class brats who have never had any form of real hardship (just like me in case you were going to ask..lol) I will defend their right to complain about pretty much whatever they want.....THAT is the real American Dream. And ya know what? Occasionally I will even buy one of their CD's because i like the music enough that the politics of their lyrics don' get in the way of enjoyin the music most of the time. Neil Young, Pearl Jam and the first two Rage cd's are a good examples. This works for me because i'm not really looking to be educated politically by some 21 year old guitar player from Pasadena.

Well...it's true.

By some opinions here, "guys" (non-specific) who are critical of a shallow consumer-driven society are somehow not allowed to play Fender guitars or Marshall amps...or make any money at all.

If that is not asinine, please...tell me what is.

[davedvdy]

Well...it's true.

By some opinions here, "guys" (non-specific) who are critical of a shallow consumer-driven society are somehow not allowed to play Fender guitars or Marshall amps...or make any money at all.

If that is not asinine, please...tell me what is.

+1, where do you draw the line?

Although, I will admit, that it was extremely hypocritical of a Govt. leader putting down the use of SUV's, and she was spotted getting out of her's.

That picture sold on Ebay for good money, LOL

[drew_half_empty]

i used to be into that crap, but in retrospect, it's dumb

i respect large corporations, i really do. Like... someone else... was saying, they all started out small, and they're big now because the people running them were excellent businessmen & knew how to beat the competition. Yes enron was bad, but look at genetec. It was the fortune 100 best place to work. 95% of it's employees own stock in it, and they have more benefits than you can shake a stick at. That company is ran better than any mom & pop shop ever will be

Same with Carmax. I'd rather go there than a locally owned company, for 1 reason: the salesmen get a flat comission rate. It doesn't matter if they sell you a ford pinto or a porsche 911, they make the same ammount of money. This tells me i won't be upsold unless i'm asking to be upsold.

[jdm61]

i used to be into that crap, but in retrospect, it's dumb

i respect large corporations, i really do. Like... someone else... was saying, they all started out small, and they're big now because the people running them were excellent businessmen & knew how to beat the competition. Yes enron was bad, but look at genetec. It was the fortune 100 best place to work. 95% of it's employees own stock in it, and they have more benefits than you can shake a stick at. That company is ran better than any mom & pop shop ever will be

Same with Carmax. I'd rather go there than a locally owned company, for 1 reason: the salesmen get a flat comission rate. It doesn't matter if they sell you a ford pinto or a porsche 911, they make the same ammount of money. This tells me i won't be upsold unless i'm asking to be upsold.

The problem that I have with many big corporations is not that they are big. It is that, after a while, they catch the institutional mentality disease and forget what made them great to begin with. Governing by comittee, focus groups, etc. What eventually happens to them is that they lose market share. Sears is a great example. I'm sure a few of you are old enough to remember when they were the king of the hill and every kid still waited anxiously for the Christmas Wish Book to arrive. They just lost their edge and Dillards, Target and Wal Mart each carved out a piece of their former market share. While a particular "corporate culture" may have some silly aspects, like the aforementioned kayak thingy at MS, it is one o fthe things that drives this succesful companies. If you were an early Wal Mart employe and took advantage of the benefits that Sam offered, you did pretty well. I read a story about a guy who was a truck driver for Wal Mart from early on. He retired and cashed out his stock options and had a nest egg of around $800,000!!!!!!! All I can say about them is if they abandon the things that got them to number one, then somebody else will come along and nibble away at their market share. I know that it seems unlikely because they are so HUGE, but look at GM. They have lost like 60% of their car market share since the 60's I do believe

[Skarekrough]

If someone wants to buy way too much stuff, then so be it.

I agree....you're free to do what you want.

But I think so much of the consumerist culture is caught up in itself and has no point to back away from to even catch a breath of fresh air to re-evaluate.

There was a movement called "Buy Nothing Day" awhile ago. It was an interesting idea; can you go 24 hours without buying anything? Can you go a week? A month? Three months?

I found it compelling...the entire notion that if we made a conscious effort to stop the potential changes we could make. I was floored to find out how much money I wasted on stupid things.

[Jonny R]

[Jonny R]

I've seen an HSBC President in tears as he helped the poor of a country. I've tagged along to a meeting where the national President of Shell Oil eagerly discussed how he could help the poor in his own country.

Not isolated incidents. People are people, even at the top of the tree. The CEO of my previous company got the whole company heavily involved in a charity raising funds for child health research. He contributed, as did we all, in many different projects and activities.

I personally think we benefit from getting away from strictly cause oriented perspectives, and get involved with people. There's nothing like being involved with the people, whether it be children suffering chronic conditions, or the incredibly poor of another country, to really appreciate what we have and have our own perspectives changed radically.

I simply don't really shop like I used to. It wasn't by decision, it was just the effect of being involved with those who don't have the basics of life. Our money can be better used than spending it on worthless rubbish.

[Stevo]

Lennon was not an anti-Capitalist either.

True. That's why I mentioned "by the way". My point is that some talk the talk and some walk the walk.

[Jake]

Observation: I haven't seen too many anti-capitalist bands nowadays. Lot's of political bands on all sides though, and in reality, regardless of their agenda, those opinions generally just make me lose interest in the band.


Rise Against, I'm looking right in your direction. Why did you decide to start sucking?

[callous_frigid_chill]

capitalism rocks.