Health Care Reform

[misterwhizzy]

Ehhh... Maybe in theory, but don't most elected officials already have their financial ducks in a row? I know Mayor Bloomberg is taking a $1 annual salary, and I know George W. made all his money in the oil business. I'm not sure they would really care...

Again off topic, I started thinking last night... Do non-Americans with jobs comparable to an American live the same lifestyle? I'm pretty sure historically Germany and Japan have both had pretty high wages and pretty high unemployment, but it's been ten years since I took that economics class. What I'm asking in a nutshell is, do American workers who do the same type of work enjoy the same quality of life as someone who is not American doing the same thing?

[dominus]

Originally Posted by glassman

Really? Under the Articles of Confederation, it was a volunteer position and it attracted people that had a passion for this country. I'd bet that people like that still exist. I would think that most would serve only a single term though.

Think of the problems that would solve...wow!

The problem with that is the inherent greed system we have in place. The only people that would work at a job for 2, 4, or 6 years for free are those that already have enough money. And they would be the ones who would be working hardest to keep their standard of living going. The CEOs and whatnot.

Of course, even promising them a decent amount of money doesn't keep the CEOs from trying to get into politics anyway. Carly Fiorina drove HP into the ground, bailed out with a hefty golden parachute (was fired, really) and now wants to run for the US Senate. I can't imagine that she wants to give of herself for the greater good.

I thought about running for Congress myself. I try to see myself as someone that's above all the greed. The congressional pay is more than adequate, and the only people that would be allowed into my office would have to show their ID proving that they live in my district.

[Lazarus1140]

This is basically off topic, but ..........

In 1995 the budget for the Securities and Exchange Commision was slightly over $300,000,000. By 2008 it had grown to over $900,000,000 (I have the exact figures at home). That represents an approximate 100% increase after adjusting for inflation.

Does anyone know how much Bernard Madoff stole out from under their $900,000,000 eagle eyes?

[innerdreamrecords.co]

Originally Posted by glassman

Really? Under the Articles of Confederation, it was a volunteer position and it attracted people that had a passion for this country. I'd bet that people like that still exist. I would think that most would serve only a single term though.

Think of the problems that would solve...wow!

I'd like to think you're right but the cynic in me says that most look at politics as a stepping stone to power and riches not altruism. The Bloomberg's of the world are a very small percentage.

[Arkitkt]

Originally Posted by misterwhizzy

Ehhh...
Again off topic, I started thinking last night... Do non-Americans with jobs comparable to an American live the same lifestyle? I'm pretty sure historically Germany and Japan have both had pretty high wages and pretty high unemployment, but it's been ten years since I took that economics class. What I'm asking in a nutshell is, do American workers who do the same type of work enjoy the same quality of life as someone who is not American doing the same thing?

I can only answer that for Germany - the lifestyle there is pretty similar, except priorities differ greatly. Germans are perfectly happy with a smaller house and a smaller car, but take away their 3 weeks vacation abroad and they'll rebel.
The wage / salary differential between white collar / blue collar jobs is not as big as it is in the US, taxes are higher (offset by things like publically funded education, functioning public transportation, very good and modern infrastructure, better safety net in case something goes wrong.
Unemployment is higher, especially in East Germany.

Worries about cost of medical treatments are unheard of. Nobody goes broke when they get sick. Everybody is covered, even the bum on the street. Health insurance is provided by private companies with strict regulations and oversight, premiums are shared 50-50 between employer and employee, Family members are covered at no additional cost. Higher income folks can opt out of the public system and go fully private. Services in that case are better (shorter wait to see a Dr., single bed room in the hospital, etc.), quality of care is not noticeably different.

Germans have enjoyed universal care since the 1890s. For me as a German, the whole discussion here in the US would be hillarious, if it wasn't so sad to see good folks like our own Lew getting in financial trouble because people are lacking the will or the stones to make things right.

[Tor]

Originally Posted by misterwhizzy

Again off topic, I started thinking last night... Do non-Americans with jobs comparable to an American live the same lifestyle? I'm pretty sure historically Germany and Japan have both had pretty high wages and pretty high unemployment, but it's been ten years since I took that economics class. What I'm asking in a nutshell is, do American workers who do the same type of work enjoy the same quality of life as someone who is not American doing the same thing?

Compared to Norwegians, Americans are known as workaholics.

My impression is that we have better opportunities to do stuff besides work.

Although, Americans get retired much earlier.

[Zerberus]

Originally Posted by misterwhizzy

.... Maybe it's the fact that they can buy their way to the top of the line. .....

Yep, this is the primary reason for many patients to come to the US from other western countries. In their own countries the rich don´t have the possibility of throwing money at hospitals so they can still get preferential treatment. In many US clinics, they can.... IMO as despicable as it gets. Financial status has zero correlation to how valuable someone´s life is, and IMO such actions are **** close to breaking the Hippocratic Oath that every doctor takes...

I don't know why, but the fact remains that they're getting better treatment there than they would anywhere else.

No, they don´t. They just get it faster because they can buy themselves to the top in our corrupted and morally devoid system.

The fact that we're doing education the same way as Europe and doing worse at it should tell you that the American government is not capable of running a system as well. ...

Having been a subject of the US school system (to be accurate the Hypergood, "we really do rule" version aka. DoDDS schools) up until 9th grade and a subject of the German /Standard european one from 9th until 13th, I can assure there is almost NOTHING US schools do that is even remotely similar to European ones. In a European school the curricula is significantly heavier, esp. the maths (which will bog you down in college regardless of what you major in), there is a million times more hands-on time going on, and it is significantly more than a "mildly educational day care center", which in the US can be applied all the way up until you get you BA....Lack of any sort of challenge was one of the main reasons I decided against going to college un the US, "WTF should I go to school for another four years for just to rehash stuff I´va already known since 10th grade?"

As far as academic level goes, I would have gotten 2 years waived at Yale right off the bat due to both SAT scores and performance level, and I was a pretty crappy student.

And ironically, Germany is one of the WORST performing european countries academically....

Sorry, but if you look at a european school for 30 seconds and a topical american one, you can see a dozen differences that immediately show the wholly different mindset. The very tip of the iceberg is how the USA oppresses and criminalized high school students for things that have been going on since the 60s. Metal detectors at many entrances, long term suspensions for minor offenses or simply exercising constitutional rights, and similar issues... Bottom line: these people are being demonized and made to look bad so we have a scapegoat for the next BS thing we have to direct attention away from. In the US teachers and administration are scared ****less of the scores of lawyers that will screw up their life forever if they act even remotely human, so they don`t. In Europe, we don´t punish people for doing their job properly.... over here a teacher that tells a rambunctions child to sit in the corner for 5 minutes will NOT be litigated against for cruel and unusual punishment, stripping of freedoms and creating social outcasts. In the USA, he would have likely ended his career the moment he stepped in the classroom...

In europe on the other hand, we embrace the social and cultural differences that first become evident in the schoolyard, but instead of punishing people for doing nothing illegal and imparting a stigmata of "youth gone wild"... well, we talk to children.. It´s an absolutely Novel idea and will probably never catch on, but I still think it´s a good one.

Sorry, but the only thing european and american education systems have in common is that Home schooled children are still in the minority in most places.

Originally Posted by Tor

Compared to Norwegians, Americans are known as workaholics.

This is true just about everywhere. It´s primarily a product of low salaries and similar forcing people to work multiple jobs, something that is not yet commonplace in Europe. We´re getting there, though..

Although, Americans get retired much earlier.

My Grandmother is 92, and still works full time in retail.
My father is 67 and still works 65-70 hours a week training navy recruits to fly.
My mother is 65, and having not worked for most of her life, she now cleans and gardens for neighbors.

Would they not do so, they would be on the street and starve within about 6 months...

I´m 33 and I´d say my lifestyle is significantly closer to retired than theirs....

Comparing almost anything in the US to almost anything anywhere else is apples and oranges, because the US as a general rule does things with different goals in mind and therefore goes at them from a different angle. When the US and Europe or others start truly doing things the same way for the same reasons, then comparisons will become valid

[misterwhizzy]

Originally Posted by Zerberus

Sorry, but if you look at a european school for 30 seconds and a topical american one, you can see a dozen differences that immediately show the wholly different mindset. The very tip of the iceberg is how the USA oppresses and criminalized high school students for things that have been going on since the 60s. Metal detectors at many entrances, long term suspensions for minor offenses or simply exercising constitutional rights, and similar issues... Bottom line: these people are being demonized and made to look bad so we have a scapegoat for the next BS thing we have to direct attention away from. In the US teachers and administration are scared ****less of the scores of lawyers that will screw up their life forever if they act even remotely human, so they don`t. In Europe, we don´t punish people for doing their job properly.... over here a teacher that tells a rambunctions child to sit in the corner for 5 minutes will NOT be litigated against for cruel and unusual punishment, stripping of freedoms and creating social outcasts. In the USA, he would have likely ended his career the moment he stepped in the classroom...

I think this may point at the real problem of America. Instead of worrying about the kids (or patients, whatever, the same thing applies), we worry about covering our own backsides. We have been such a lawsuit-happy nation that we have gone from worrying about others to worrying about ourselves.

Will tort reform fix this? No, probably not. I think there needs to be a top-to-bottom rediscovery of attitudes. I don't think the Dallas cheerleader who dressed up as Lil Wayne is racist. I don't think McDonald's intended to burn an old lady in the crotch. I think people are finding ways to profit off of unfortunate incidents on the order of seven figures. Of course there are victims, and I don't want to take anything away from them. But the balance between being compensated properly and suing the pants off people because it's profitable has long since been crossed.

In europe on the other hand, we embrace the social and cultural differences that first become evident in the schoolyard, but instead of punishing people for doing nothing illegal and imparting a stigmata of "youth gone wild"... well, we talk to children.. It´s an absolutely Novel idea and will probably never catch on, but I still think it´s a good one.

I would _LOVE_ for this to happen, but I think in America we're scared of cultural and social differences. We don't embrace them, we skulk around scared of shadows because of the threat of labels.

[Lazarus1140]

It is probable that the actual savings that might be achieved through tort reform are grossly underestimated.

How much money is spent on unnecessary tests and proceedures and referrals to specialists simply so a doctor can cover his backside so he's not sued for not having covered every base when something rare happens to the patient he was treating for the common cold?

[misterwhizzy]

Originally Posted by Lazarus1140

It is probable that the actual savings that might be achieved through tort reform are grossly underestimated.

How much money is spent on unnecessary tests and proceedures and referrals to specialists simply so a doctor can cover his backside so he's not sued for not having covered every base when something rare happens to the patient he was treating for the common cold?

I think this is where the argument that "health care is not a business" comes in. If a tech screws up my Gibson, I take it to a different tech. If a doctor screws up, I may not get that chance. But then no doctor is perfect, and not every condition shows up the same way in each patient. It's a complicated issue, and unfortunately, I think too much time is wasted placing the blame on the provider.