Gibson guitars and quality issues

[tnvol]

Originally Posted by Lewguitar

The lawsuit Gibson filed against PRS regarding the PRS Singlecut guitar design didn't do Gibson any good either. Gibson lost - and they shouldn't have filed that lawsuit to begin with. That was all about corporate greed and trying to injure a smaller, less well-financed competitor, IMO.

But I still like my 335.

Yeah I can agree with that, but I'm talking about the actual quality of the guitars. I've heard so many people, especially younger people in another "pointy" forum I frequent say things like "I was in Guitar Center and played a (insert import pointy model) that was way better than the 3000 dollar Gibson on the wall". In most of those cases, it's the lightning bolts on the body and the guys name in huge letters on the headstock that gets their attention, and fries their brain into thinking that Gibson on the wall sucks compared to the crappy Korean import they are blowing loads over. I'm in no way saying you have to spend 3 grand to get a good guitar but when you do spend that much, I think for the most part you are getting what you paid for. Just my opinion and like I said, Ive never been burned by any Gibsons Ive owned or played. I guess I've been lucky in my experiences with the company. I can understand the frustrations of other folks who have not been so fortunate though.

[Binnerscot]

I am not a Gibson basher, nor am I a Gibson fanboy. I would like a nice Les Paul someday, but it isn't anything high on my list. I always check out LPs when I see them. I have a seen quite a few with very obvious issues. Seeing crooked tuners always amazes me.

[sosomething]

I've owned a bunch of Gibsons, but I've only purchased one that wasn't used.

That one had to be sent back.

The clearcoat started cracking at every stress point on the guitar - around the bridge posts, at the neck joint, and behind the nut.

Rubbing compound started leaking out from behind the body binding.

When I got it, the rout for the neck pickup was too narrow, causing the pickup to misalign with the strings.

This was in 2007-2008.

I love Gibson guitars but they do still wrestle with some QC issues from time to time.

That said, my SG Classic and ES-339 are both flawless, awesome instruments.

[SchecMan]

I have an 05 Classic that I absolutley love... It didn't start out that way though. It wasn't set up the way I liked it when I first picked it up. I loaded it in the car and drove up to Nashville and had Greg at Classic Axe do a full set up. Now I've seen the light...

[Kosh Naranek]

Most of the stories about spotty QC at Gibson come from people who play their guitars more than I do. But here is a bit about my limited experience. I used to have a Norlin era ES-347. It was actually stamped as a factory second, but I'll be darned if I could find a flaw. I miss that guitar, even with its TP-6 tailpiece, brass nut and built-in peg winders on the tuners.

About 8 years ago we had a large chain music store in my area which has since closed, and I took a look at a Les Paul Jr. there that had the neck glued in such that it visibly wasn't on the same plane as the body! IOW, the bridge had to be raised higher on one side to compensate so the strings were at an even height over the fretboard. First time I'd seen that on any guitar.

But some time later I took a close look at a Les Paul Jr that was hanging in another local shop, and the construction looked flawless. Even more amazing was the feel of that guitar. Solid, and played just right, all up and down the fretboard. I've heard that Gibson doesn't ship their guitars set up, and expects dealers to set them up. If so, someone had given that guitar an expert setup, and it didn't hurt that it was built right to start with.

I've heard someone suggest that Gibson guitars that would have been stamped as factory seconds, or maybe never shipped at all, in more recent years have been sent to the large mail order and chain dealers. I don't know if there's truth to that but the Les Paul Jr I saw at that large chain dealer might suggest that.

Clearly there are QC issues. Hopefully they're getting better. When they do get it right, which I'm sure is most of the time, they really get it right.

[Uk Ant]

The last fresh out of the box Gibson was our old Rhythm guitarists standard which he bought on line and the nut was cut so high that you could only really use it for playing slide.
In comparison the Korean made Tokai I bought on line the other year just needed a quick action tweak and it was lovely, my MIJ Love rock also needed next to no set up work, which is a guitar half the price of an equivalently specked Gibson.
But I do agree that modern Gibsons are much better than the hunks of junk they made in the seventies... I'd still rather buy a Tokai and have a big chunk of change.

[d1dsj]

I've played a ton of L.P's over the years and most have been good. I found my first real dog a few weeks ago. Went into a store to try a Mesa Stiletto and grabbed a new traditional. Plugged into to tune up and the B string slipped straight out of the nut slot just under tuning tension. Other than that, the times I've played LP's and not liked them has been more to do with neck profile or set up so that's down to personal choice.

I do wonder though if Gibson put more effort into guitars like 175's, 335's, 339's etc, I would imagine they have more handfinishing than stock electrics? On a good note, ALL of the custom shop Gibsons I've played have been very nice as I would expect.

[the guy who invented fire]

Gibson are the whipping boys of the internet and thats fine...truth is I think they are making some fine guitars! I think they get hounded more than just about any other company...sure they turn out a dud now and then but as far as I've seen no more than any other company...

[kherman]

This man is holding a Norlin Era Factory 2nd.


Still one of my all time favorite tones!

[ErikH]

A few years ago I ran across several LP's and V's at a shop that were subpar for the asking price. The biggest problem were the fret ends. I don't know if it was the environment they were in or what, but the fret ends stuck out and it made them very uncomfortable to play. Some were worse than others. Lately, however, I have pickup a few here and there and I do see an improvement. I don't expect the setup to be perfect because as Lew said, everyone's preference is different.

As much as I struggle with the upper register if 24 3/4" scale guitars, I'd love to have another LP, an ebony Standard Traditional Pro to be exact. Just on paper, that sounds like the perfect LP for me.

This last spring we stopped in Nashville on our way home from Maryville and took some time out to scope out the Gibson shop in the mall there. They had a nice selection, obviously, and I played quite a few guitars that day. There were a lot of really great guitars hanging in there, especially 2 Goldtop LP's that I so badly wanted to take home but my wallet and wife wouldn't let me...lol.

I pick up more Fenders since those are what I play most and I can tell you, I see a heck of a lot of dogs there but nobody is raising up a storm about them. I guess the guitar has to have a street price over $1000 and say Gibson on the headstock before that happens.

[tnvol]

Originally Posted by kherman

This man is holding a Norlin Era Factory 2nd.


Still one of my all time favorite tones!

Yeah. He sorta does ok with that guitar. lol

[uOpt]

I have personally seen just recently:

Sticky neck syndrome (incorrectly cured nitro on the back of the neck).

Fretboard binding cracks over the fret ends (fretbord wood not old enough and shrunk).

Fret sides not smooth with fretboard around the cutaway section (high frets diskant side).

Electronics cavity's side burned from soldering.

I have seen irritating forum posts, with photos, of a 5-piece SG Standard, foggy nitro around the neck joint multiple times and truss rod screws going into nothing.

%%

Now, don't get me wrong. None of those affected stability or playability. But I do have and had many other guitars here that have none of these issues, and I mean all guitars zero, including the $180 Chinese LP alike I bought from Kac.

The evidence I have seen, and my knowledge about how a manufacturing business operates, makes me 100% convinced that Gibson operates under a strict "we accept <x>% return rate" where <x> is pretty high, and I mean in the 20% range. And that is entirely realistic for consumer items. Many return-worthy items are not returned, and with items not going to businesses that rate is pretty high.

[ErikH]

Originally Posted by kherman

This man is holding a Norlin Era Factory 2nd.


Still one of my all time favorite tones!

I can just about guarantee you that the only part of that guitar that is left from when it left the factory is the wood. It may be a second (for reasons we don't know), and he probably got it because it was cheaper. IIRC, Zakk Wylde's first LP Custom is also a Norlin era factory 2nd. Doesn't mean a thing other than that is what was affordable to him or whoever got it for him at the time.

Something I'm curious about (not related to 2nds, just in general):

How many here saw and picked up their first Les Paul and actually paid attention to stuff like that? Probably nobody or very few. You were probably like Aceman or myself (if Aceman was like me). The first time I saw a real Les Paul and played one I was like a kid in a candy store because I was a young player and it was a guitar that one of my guitar heroes played. I could've cared less about the rest of the details.

Now that I have some playing years and experience under my belt, sure, I pay attention to the details more but I still get that giddy feeling when playing a guitar like one of my heroes played. It's just a natural thing. If I came across a factory 2nd and it played well enough, you're darn right I'd snag it because it'd be cheaper to buy.

Thanks to the internet, everybody can come to conclusions about guitars without even trying any for themselves. Nothing speaks truer than personal experience with the product being discussed.

[Zerberus]

Originally Posted by Lewguitar

I read about the lack of quality and attention to detail people have experienced with Gibson guitars made in the past 10 - 15 years. IMO, Gibson is making better and more consistent guitars now than they have since things started to go wrong sometime after about 1965.

Since returning to the ES-335 as a main electric guitar, whenever I go into a music shop and see a Gibson ES-335 on the wall I usually ask if I can check it out. Every one has impressed me as being a very nice ax and the quality, tone and feel seems more consistent than in years passed. So it's surprising to read so many slams on Gibson's lack of quality.

Just for the record, I think the worst Gibsons were made during the Norlin era which would mean those from the late 1960's and through-out the 70's. Many of those were garbage: no attentiuon to vintage details, skinny necks and sloppy workmanship. I'm astonished that those lousy guitars are now being sold for $10K and more because they're now considered vintage.

During that period I think the folks at Gibson just didn't have much respect for rock musicians - but they did want our money.

Gibsons made in the last 15 years are made so much better than those made 30 - 40 years ago, IMO.

The '96, '00 and '01 ES-335's I've been able to spend some time with are/were virtually identical and on a par with the ES-335's I owned decades ago which were all made during what I think of as being Gibson's Golden era for electric guitars: 1956 - 64.

Even back in those days I'd find old Gibson from the 50's and 60's that had issues: pickups installed so that the polepieces were not perfectly centered under the strings - stuff like that.

I'd remove the pickup, fill the screw holes and then remount the pickup moved over a tad, to where it should have been mounted in the first place.

I've always had to tweak and tighten up certain small things whenever I get a guitar. To get the action where I like it, this usually means filing the nut some, adjusting the truss rod and adjusting the intonation and action.

I expect to have to do this - I don't expect any manufacturer to know what I prefer and I expect that they'll leave the nut cut higher and the action set higher than I would like.

Likewise, I expect to adjust the pickups and polepieces to my tastes.

Anyways, my own experience with Gibson guitars made in the last 15 years has been very good and I don't see the lack of quality that so many hear complain about.

Maybe it's because I expect to have to do a complete set up on any guitar upon receiving it.

Lew

I have only had regular access to massive amounts of instruments in the last 15-20 years, but I must echo every word of this statement.

I do think the quality of fret-and Binding work could be more consistent, and that some still leave the factory with misplaced bridges, but I do not see most of the gripes that many complain about on forums more often than they actually play a Gibson that they haven`t played before

[uOpt]

Originally Posted by d1dsj

I do wonder though if Gibson put more effort into guitars like 175's, 335's, 339's etc, I would imagine they have more handfinishing than stock electrics?

I think this is very likely. Even if they are math-driven like "we aim for a 17.3% return rate" then you need different absolute fail rates at different models. Because guitars that are bought by "real players" are more likely to be sent when they are not perfect. Which bozo buys a 175 just to brag with it?

I also have a suspicion that Fender uses better wood for Tele than Strats, on average, and even that Fender has a tighter look at how Teles come out precision-wise (frets, neck pocket). That would fit a suspicion that Tele choosers are more likely to listen close enough to notice wood pieces and check every fret. A Strat has many distracting factors (just the bazillion pickups, fret, fretboard radius and color options) that probably makes a return-worthy guitar get through with a higher probability.

[kherman]

Originally Posted by ErikH

I can just about guarantee you that the only part of that guitar that is left from when it left the factory is the wood. It may be a second (for reasons we don't know), and he probably got it because it was cheaper. IIRC, Zakk Wylde's first LP Custom is also a Norlin era factory 2nd. Doesn't mean a thing other than that is what was affordable to him or whoever got it for him at the time.

Something I'm curious about (not related to 2nds, just in general):

How many here saw and picked up their first Les Paul and actually paid attention to stuff like that? Probably nobody or very few. You were probably like Aceman or myself (if Aceman was like me). The first time I saw a real Les Paul and played one I was like a kid in a candy store because I was a young player and it was a guitar that one of my guitar heroes played. I could've cared less about the rest of the details.

Now that I have some playing years and experience under my belt, sure, I pay attention to the details more but I still get that giddy feeling when playing a guitar like one of my heroes played. It's just a natural thing. If I came across a factory 2nd and it played well enough, you're darn right I'd snag it because it'd be cheaper to buy.

Thanks to the internet, everybody can come to conclusions about guitars without even trying any for themselves. Nothing speaks truer than personal experience with the product being discussed.

Oh for sure.

Here's the basics from the JS website
"John's main guitar is a 1978 model Gibson Les Paul Custom and it has been used for thousands of shows and on every recording John has made for the last 20 years. There are some serious signs of wear and tear. As you can see in the photo above, much of the finish has worn off the back of the guitar, and the neck has some worn spots, too. But all things considered, it's holding up well. The photos above are about 12 years old and the guitar has another decade worth of tours on it now and shows considerable more wear.

John has replaced the stock Gibson tuners with Grover tuners. The guitar also has a brass nut. There was a Gibson "Dirty Fingers" pickup in the bridge position for many years but that pickup started malfunctioning after all the years of wear. It was replaced with a lower output Gibson PAF re-issue pickup a few years ago. The guitar has been refretted several times. The current fret wire is a medium jumbo size and has a very different feel from the "Fretless Wonder" style frets Les Paul Customs often have. John likes the action on his guitars pretty low and he really likes the slick feel of the ebony fingerboards on Les Paul Customs. "

[That90'sGuy]

Misaligned binding is piss poor, especially on a custom shop SG Custom. One of the Les Paul Special DCs I owned had finishing problems with the dye. On a lower end model, I can expect that... on a custom shop instrument - hell no. This comes back to the old saying: PLAY BEFORE YOU BUY. I've played some Gibson instruments that would constantly go out of tune. Hardtails should not be going out of tune, period. Some Gibsons, that G string always causes a problem. See what you're getting in person because I learned some hard lessons buying things sight unseen. In this day in age, with technology the way it is, there's no reason why Gibson can't do a middle of the run setup on their guitars. Poorly cut nuts show lack of professionalism. I've seen perfectly cut nuts on import PRS, why is there a problem with USA Gibsons?

My Gibson '76 RI Explorer and Les Paul Standard were both well made instruments. Tonally, I didn't care for the Les Paul Standard so it got sold, but the Explorer was a beautiful instrument. When Gibson is "on", they're "on". I have tried a few guitars in the stores recently that were pretty good (an ES-339 and a few used ES-335s). I didn't see finish or playability issues with them and they were constructed right.

All in all, the few bad experiences were from instruments purchased online. Play them in person, make the judgement call then.

[KeeperOS]

I will admit to not having a heck of a lot of experience with Gibson guitars but I have nevertheless played more than a couple. Of those most were ok but nothing as ground-breaking as to warrant (IMO) the price and two, a BFG and a Vixen, costing 1100€ and 1700€ respectively (that's about 1600$ and 2500$) of which, the BFG had an entire piece missing from the top, right next to the neck pocket (which from what I can tell happened often since I've seen other BFG's photos on the net being exactly like that) while the Vixen had frets that were completely square.

Now I can't be sure of what one would call a low-end Gibson but for the kind of money those two cost I'd think one would find that unacceptable by any standard.

On the other hand when I bought my Michael Kelly Patriot Limited, a guitar costing a mere 500€ I played about 6 of them at the shop before picking mine.
All 6 sounded a little different but all of them felt completely consistent and had absolutely no flaws whatsoever.

I do understand that Gibson produces more guitars in a month than MK does in a year but still, for the kind of money they ask for their guitars the job their QC does is simply unacceptable.

[Bludave]

I have seen some questionable quality issues, but mostly cosmetic. I actually have a friend who owns a Les Paul with a fingerprint under the lacquer. on the back of the neck. I have played a bunch of new guitar that I was not happy with the neck shape. Some of the newer Les Paul's have a kind of square shape to them...... its not for me, but other then little issues I think they are making a great bunch of guitars. I bought a brand new 359 about a year ago and the guitar is awesome. I haven't been playing it much lately but when I do I remember that I love everything about it. I still prefer my old 335 to it though.

[uOpt]

I had a Norlin (75 LPC) and don't recall any issues.

But it's really not a strong point. People play these 1970ties Norlins specifically because they want the ultra-heavy bodies with maple center, the funky neck constructions. These guitars don't sound like anything they make today.