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Thread: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by Wattage View Post
    I think this would be good vault material.
    Gag!!

    Oops, sorry. What question asked here has been answered?

    A treble bleed of any type is a "compensation" device. It attempts to compensate for the loss of treble (predominately, although some will say "tone" instead of treble) as the volume control is turned down.

    A low value volume pot, such as a 250K, really doesn't need compensation. A 500K and higher volume pot usually does.

    Why? Because of the increase in output impedance of pickups over the years.

    Now I know you have heard that a 500K or a 1M pot will sound brighter than a 250K. If the output impedance of a pickup is high enough, then that statement will certainly be true. The higher value pots will present less of a load on the pickups (in parallel with the amp or first footpedal's input impedance). The less the load, the higher the resonant peak of the pickup.

    This is not rocket surgery.

    But the problem will present itself once that volume control is turned down from the "10" setting that helps provide that lower load brightness. The resistance between the "10" or full on lug and the center or output lug will be placed in series (along with the pickup's output impedance) with a parallel impedance made up of the cable capacitance, the resistance of the volume pot from the center lug to ground in parallel with the input impedance of whatever amp or device you are feeding. The higher the value of the volume control pot, the greater the effect - and the effect is the reduction of high frequencies.

    Enter the "treble bleed". (If this same circuit was inside an amp it would be called "bright" and usually wired to a switch). The intent is to provide a higher amount of treble frequencies to offset the treble loss due to the series impedance and cable capacitance.

    This is the basic problem. How much to provide and how much to offset.

    And since we are talking about passive circuits, change any one component and you will have a different problem. As an example, change your cable to a lower or higher capacitance one and your sound will either be brighter or darker.

    Treble bleeds were thoroughly explored during the 1970s. Resistors were added to the treble bleed cap either in parallel or series. Resistors, no matter how they were added, really didn't help, at least not in an economic sense.

    Adding a resistor in parallel reduced the depth of the cut, but it allowed more lower frequencies to be bypassed around the volume control. This was no different than the effect obtained by increasing the value of the cap without a resistor.

    Adding a resistor in series reduced the "boost" effect to a higher frequency which would have been expected by the cap. This was no difference than the effect obtained by decreasing the value of the cap without a resistor.

    So the bottom line - adjust the value of the treble bleed cap, if you choose to use one - to either compensate for the treble loss or augment it.

    But in passive circuits, you need to consider the whole circuit, not just a single value... regardless if you want to use resistors or not.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    The only trouble with the Kinman mid is that those .0012uF capacitors seem hard to come by (compared to .001uF). Hopefully that .0002uF difference doesn't matter... Since I had a 500k pot (and I read somewhere that you should use 1/2 the pot value) I used a 220k resistor in series with a .001uF capacitor and that has worked fine. Next I'll probably try 100k in series with .001uF on a 250k pot. 130k doesn't seem to be a common value either.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by LJ King View Post

    ....

    Adding a resistor in parallel reduced the depth of the cut, but it allowed more lower frequencies to be bypassed around the volume control. This was no different than the effect obtained by increasing the value of the cap without a resistor.

    Adding a resistor in series reduced the "boost" effect to a higher frequency which would have been expected by the cap. This was no difference than the effect obtained by decreasing the value of the cap without a resistor.

    So the bottom line - adjust the value of the treble bleed cap, if you choose to use one - to either compensate for the treble loss or augment it.

    But in passive circuits, you need to consider the whole circuit, not just a single value... regardless if you want to use resistors or not.
    If you calculate or use http://www.harryj.net/voltone.xls, numbers/graphs will show that varying cap's value will not be the same as with the resistor (whether ser or par). BUT, it will surely sound like the same to some ears.

    And I always asked myself how noone else could see that my wife looks exactly the same as Angelina Jolie.

    Bottomline - one should try different options and see/hear for oneself. Then choose what one likes better. All this is neither religion nor science, just fun.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratosphere View Post
    The only trouble with the Kinman mid is that those .0012uF capacitors seem hard to come by (compared to .001uF). Hopefully that .0002uF difference doesn't matter... Since I had a 500k pot (and I read somewhere that you should use 1/2 the pot value) I used a 220k resistor in series with a .001uF capacitor and that has worked fine. Next I'll probably try 100k in series with .001uF on a 250k pot. 130k doesn't seem to be a common value either.
    Given the typical tolerances of the caps you get, .0002 uf is negligible. Anyway, I'm using .001's on my guitars and it works great.
    Generic signature line.

  5. #25
    Luckybastidologist bungalowbill's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    I just did this mod to my strat and what a difference! No mud and so shrillness, like some of the other treble bleed mods. Best dollar or 2 you can spend on your guitar.

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    Mojo's Minions kjrocks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Simple guys like me are going to need a diagram

  7. #27
    Mojo's Minions Fusion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Artie looking past the caps, resistors and pots, I want to know, do you really still program with BASIC? I haven't used that since 1985 on my Atari 800. Pretty cool if you're still finding a use for BASIC

  8. #28
    Slutbucker Pimpologist ArtieToo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Yes, actually, I do. I use QuickBASIC 4.5 however. Not that "numbering" kind that came with old computers. You write code in blocks, or modules. There are no numbered lines. Its like a really deluxe programmable, graphing calculator. It comes in handy for all kinds of small chores.

    Also, it keeps me up to practice in simple programming since several of our systems at work still use code thats similar to this. One of our "every day" automated systems still uses a PDP-11. That predates even the 8086 and 8088. The military isn't nearly as up to date as you might think.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    I posted this based on the research I had done on this mod (I'm not a tech though). I used on many but not all guitars ... post just to help:

    What is the treble bleed mod (the parallel version)?
    A simple mod that can be done to any volume control. Placing a capacitor & resistor in parallel between the two hot terminals of the volume control (lug 1 and lug 2).

    What does the mod do?
    Sometimes you can lose high end frequencies when you turn down the volume control. The CAPACITOR in this mod helps you retain the high frequencies when you turn volume down. But sometimes this mod can become too thin when the volume control is turned down. The RESISTOR in this mod to restore the lower bass when the volume is turned down.

    What capacitor and resistor values?
    Capacitors = (680pf-.0015uf) + RESISTOR (100k-300k)
    The cap allows some of the high frequencies to pass around the volume pot direct to the output and the resistor limits the amount of them that get past.

    Capacitor values:
    The capacitor determines the frequencies present (lower value = higher frequencies) & (higher value = lower frequencies). The capacitance is usually between 680pf and .0015uf, but you will have to increase the resistor value with the larger cap values and decrease the resistor value with the smaller cap values or else you will notice the pot curve becoming noticeably different with the larger cap values.

    Resistor values:
    The bigger the resistor, the less you are limiting bass. Resistor determines the brightness (lower Ohms = more bright) & (higher Ohms = less bright) but again frequencies are determined by the cap

    This varies with taste but these are common:
    680pf+220k - This is what www.acmeguitarworks,com sells in parallel
    .001uf+130k - This is what www.kinman.com recommends in series

    Kinman Links For Single Coils: Strat Wiring & Tele Wiring

    I have used both values (acme to kinman & in between) on both humbuckers and single coils. But I've always installed the cap/resisitor in parallel. But I experiment with alligator clips until I find what I like ... it's to taste.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    is it ok if i don't like this mod ? :|
    had this in my guitar for a few weeks now, it weirds me out in a way, i'm used to turn the volume down to lose them high freqs, this kinda kills my purpose :P

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Yep ... I only have it in some of my guitars ... the ones that get too thin when I turn the volume down. I don't think any of them have the same exact caps/resistors. It's all to taste ... what sounds good ... it's just an option.

  12. #32
    Toneologist More-Gear-Than-Skill's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    refreshing thread, informative and away from the usual "what pup for doom rock" Nice, thanks guys
    Yeah!

  13. #33
    Mojo's Minions kjrocks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    How are you guys positioning these things physically. I'm about to put mine in (thanks to Bungalowbill) but by the time you join the 2 you have this long thing thats has to be bent pretty well to hit each lug? It seems like I'm going to have this funny thing either sticking up or bent around in some way not to hit other pots. If I add wire to it , it seems like I'd be creating this dongle of a thing. Am I just not picturing a nice neat way to do this?

  14. #34
    Ultimate Tone Slacker larry_emder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    i tried the mod and didnt like it. it seemed to turn the volume control into an on/off switch (from 0-1 was nearly an 100% jump in volume)

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by kjrocks View Post
    How are you guys positioning these things physically. I'm about to put mine in (thanks to Bungalowbill) but by the time you join the 2 you have this long thing thats has to be bent pretty well to hit each lug? It seems like I'm going to have this funny thing either sticking up or bent around in some way not to hit other pots. If I add wire to it , it seems like I'd be creating this dongle of a thing. Am I just not picturing a nice neat way to do this?
    Garrett, I did cover that in heat shrink for ya, didn't I?....(I thought I did) Solder one end to the 1st lug of your volume pot, then bend it to fit so you can solder to the 2nd lug. The heat shrink will prevent anything shorting out.
    Quote Originally Posted by tone4days View Post
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by bungalowbill View Post
    Garrett, I did cover that in heat shrink for ya, didn't I?....(I thought I did) Solder one end to the 1st lug of your volume pot, then bend it to fit so you can solder to the 2nd lug. The heat shrink will prevent anything shorting out.
    Yes you did cover it. That was my first thought Joe , but one leg is short and the other is not long enough to bend all the way back and reach. I dont think I should bend it in the middle of the shrink tube and if I add a piece of wire for length it seems like it might be a little floppy. Anyway I'm going to dig it all back out now and take another look and get it in somehow. Its definitely not the biggest problem I've ever faced

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by kjrocks View Post
    Yes you did cover it. That was my first thought Joe , but one leg is short and the other is not long enough to bend all the way back and reach. I dont think I should bend it in the middle of the shrink tube and if I add a piece of wire for length it seems like it might be a little floppy. Anyway I'm going to dig it all back out now and take another look and get it in somehow. Its definitely not the biggest problem I've ever faced
    Bend it the middle..you won't break it.
    Quote Originally Posted by tone4days View Post
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    That'll make life easier. I wasnt sure how it was connected under there

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by larry_emder View Post
    i tried the mod and didnt like it. it seemed to turn the volume control into an on/off switch (from 0-1 was nearly an 100% jump in volume)

    Double check the values on the resistor. Seems like I remember getting that once and found out I was way off on the resistor ... picked up the wrong one. So just double check both cap and resitor values just to be sure. Done correctly, it is a very minor change ... nothing that major should happen.
    Last edited by doveman; 07-01-2007 at 09:11 AM.

  20. #40
    Tone Member J.K.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    "it's not magic" are you sure about this?

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