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Thread: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

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    Default Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Those who aren't familiar with the Kinman mod, it's a treble bleed plus change mod designed for Strat or Tele singles that's dirt simple easy. A .001 uf cap in series with a 130k resistor across the two non-ground lugs of the volume pot(s). (Doesn't seem to matter which order the cap and resistor are in either, though to be on the safe side, I'll say your mileage may vary.)

    But it is just killer on P90's and buckers. It works especially well with a 500k pot. The most killer feature is that in rolling the volume back from 10 to 8 or even 9, the pickup has an amazing woody/vintage tone, especially if it's a bit overwound. It really sounds like you're dialing down from Alnico 5 to A2 and taking away about 0.5k.

    This is much better than even Spin-A-Split and light years better than coil splitting. Vintage to modern or vice versa with just the tweak of the volume. How do you top that?
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Zhang...is this mod in addition to the cap usually placed between the tone and vol. pots,

    or

    is it replacing this cap?

    Sorry, I just don't trust my electronics theory to know if this is a very dumb question or not. (I'm going to say that it is addition the other "typical" cap...see if I'm correct)

    Thanks

    Dave

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    Ultimate Tone Member Dirt123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangliqun View Post
    Those who aren't familiar with the Kinman mod, it's a treble bleed plus change mod designed for Strat or Tele singles that's dirt simple easy. A .001 uf cap in series with a 130k resistor across the two non-ground lugs of the volume pot(s). (Doesn't seem to matter which order the cap and resistor are in either, though to be on the safe side, I'll say your mileage may vary.)

    But it is just killer on P90's and buckers. It works especially well with a 500k pot. The most killer feature is that in rolling the volume back from 10 to 8 or even 9, the pickup has an amazing woody/vintage tone, especially if it's a bit overwound. It really sounds like you're dialing down from Alnico 5 to A2 and taking away about 0.5k.

    This is much better than even Spin-A-Split and light years better than coil splitting. Vintage to modern or vice versa with just the tweak of the volume. How do you top that?

    Series huh? I have always done this with the resistor & cap in parallel. I 'll have to try it...
    Dirt

    Oh, so that's what an invisible barrier looks like.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by greco View Post
    I'm going to say that it is addition the other "typical" cap...see if I'm correct.
    You are correct Dave.

    This is a variation of the "treble-bleed" mod. Sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a whirl.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Artie's right. This is strictly a volume pot mod, nothing to do with the tone pot so leave that tone pot cap alone.
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtieToo View Post
    You are correct Dave.

    This is a variation of the "treble-bleed" mod. Sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a whirl.
    Artie...

    If you think about it, a resistor in series would be like using a smaller cap for the treble bleed.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    The difference is the effect isn't like a standard treble bleed. With the cap alone, the sound gets more trebly/bright as I turn the vol back, at least to my ear. The resistor seems to allow some mids to come through too so the freq response stays more or less even. I don't know if it does or not, but it sure sounds like it.
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    Kablamminator ratherdashing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt123 View Post
    Series huh? I have always done this with the resistor & cap in parallel. I 'll have to try it...
    What you are describing is Seymour Duncan's variation of the treble bleed mod. Zhang's is what Chris Kinman recommends.

    I have the Duncan mod (.001 uf cap in parallel with a 220k resistor) on my Warmoth LP, and the Kinman mod (.001 uf cap in series with a 130k resistor) on my #1 Strat and my Tele. I think I like the roll-off of the Duncan mod better, but they both accomplish pretty much the same thing.

    A straight .001 uf cap on the volume pot with no resistor retains too much treble IMO. Treble frequencies are all I hear with the volume down - basically the opposite of what happens with the cap off. The Kinman and Duncan mods with the resistor are a very good compromise.

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    Kablamminator ratherdashing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhangliqun View Post
    The difference is the effect isn't like a standard treble bleed. With the cap alone, the sound gets more trebly/bright as I turn the vol back, at least to my ear. The resistor seems to allow some mids to come through too so the freq response stays more or less even. I don't know if it does or not, but it sure sounds like it.
    The cap is basically a very primitive high pass filter. With the volume on 10, it's not really in the circuit at all since there's an easy path to the jack for all frequencies. As you lower the volume, more of the treble signal starts going through the cap and less through the pot. Eventually when you hit the zero point, the entire signal is being passed to ground, and the cap is out of the picture again. Since the cap is a high pass, it counteracts the natural loss of high frequencies you encounter as more of the signal goes through the pot by keeping these highs in the circuit.

    What you're doing by adding a resistor is essentially a compromise between not having a cap and having a cap with no resistor. You're keeping the high frequencies more present as you turn down the volume, but the resistor is letting a very small amount of the other frequencies through as well.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by ratherdashing View Post
    The cap is basically a very primitive high pass filter. With the volume on 10, it's not really in the circuit at all since there's an easy path to the jack for all frequencies. As you lower the volume, more of the treble signal starts going through the cap and less through the pot. Eventually when you hit the zero point, the entire signal is being passed to ground, and the cap is out of the picture again. Since the cap is a high pass, it counteracts the natural loss of high frequencies you encounter as more of the signal goes through the pot by keeping these highs in the circuit.

    What you're doing by adding a resistor is essentially a compromise between not having a cap and having a cap with no resistor. You're keeping the high frequencies more present as you turn down the volume, but the resistor is letting a very small amount of the other frequencies through as well.
    That's pretty much what I was saying, or more accurately I was saying that it sounded like that was the case.
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by ratherdashing View Post
    What you're doing by adding a resistor is essentially a compromise between not having a cap and having a cap with no resistor. You're keeping the high frequencies more present as you turn down the volume, but the resistor is letting a very small amount of the other frequencies through as well.
    My calculations show that something completely different may be happening. (I must stress "may" until I actually try it.) By coincidence, over the last few weeks, I wrote a small BASIC program to graph the results of putting different size resistors in either the top half, bottom half, or both, of a pot. Using that program, here's what appears to be happening:

    Ignore the cap for a moment. Assume we have only the 130k resistor on the top two lugs of the pot. As we lower the pot down, the 130k resistor is being placed in parallel with the "top" portion of the carbon trace. If we look at the electrical halfway point, we get this:

    Assuming a 500k pot, we have 250k in parallel with 130k for 85.5k. Add the 250k of the bottom half and we have a total effective pot resistance of only 335k. Thats the load the pickup "sees", which will suppress some highs. My program shows a slowly decreasing "effective" pot value that starts with 500k at the top, and ending up at around 100k at the bottom.

    Now, lets bring our cap back in. The cap causes only part of the frequency spectrum to "see" the diminishing pot value, which happens to be the highs. The low frequencies see a normal pot value of 500k all the way down. So, while the cap may allow some highs to slide by, its simultaneously "mellowing" the total amount of highs available to bypass.

    Its allowing more of what there's less of to begin with. Should be interesting. Can't wait to try this out.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Someone is bound to ask, so I'll be the first.

    What are the consequences of varying the values of the cap and/or the resistor. Someone (assumedly Kinman) must have calcualted the stated values and recommended them as a reasonable approach to this.

    I'm not really trying to open a whole new "can of worms" here....just wondering if the results of changing the values of the cap and/or resistor can be predicted from the perspective of tonal changes.

    Thanks

    Dave

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    It would be difficult to calculate sonic affects of different values. Although, the more I think about what I said above, a "normal" treble-bleed mod presents a virtual short to the high frequencies on the top half of the pot, effectively decreasing the high-end load even more. So, the 130k resistor diminishes that affect. That is, it may not load the high-end down as much as a conventional treble-bleed, thus giving more highs.

    Its making my brain hurt.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtieToo View Post
    Its making my brain hurt.
    Sorry Artie....take two aspirins and post again in the morning.

    I don't know enough electronics theory (yet) to to have a resultant "brain hurt". Finally, I have found an advantage to not knowing much theory.

    Dave

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtieToo View Post
    It would be difficult to calculate sonic affects of different values. Although, the more I think about what I said above, a "normal" treble-bleed mod presents a virtual short to the high frequencies on the top half of the pot, effectively decreasing the high-end load even more. So, the 130k resistor diminishes that affect. That is, it may not load the high-end down as much as a conventional treble-bleed, thus giving more highs.

    Its making my brain hurt.
    You ignored my post. Get what you deserve!!

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    Quote Originally Posted by LJ King View Post
    You ignored my post. Get what you deserve!!
    Nah . . . I saw it but it didn't "click".

    I need to stop overanalyzing this stuff.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    No, it's good your analyzing this stuff, it's not Magic. I think what your saying is the high frequencies "see" a smaller pot value, i.e. 250K, and the lows see the 500K. Since the highs are primarily effected by the Q of the pickup...

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    I have a melody maker les paul, that I read had the tone control wired to the volume pot rather than the std. method. This caused the treble to be turned down as the volume was. I haven't checked it, but that sounds like it might have a similar effect to what your talking about.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...ne#post1561989

    After GlassSnuff from LPF mentioned Clorenzo, I've searched TGP and found this. The discussion and excel file by Clorenzo ( http://www.harryj.net/voltone.xls ) could put some light on this matter, I think. Obviously, the series treble bleed circuit is missing from xls file, but the file answers some questions mentioned here anyway ... to enable it (file) just read carefully "intro" sheet.
    File addresses other guitar circuit elements also, but one can concentrate on those of his/her particular interest.

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    Default Re: Kinman Mod -- killer for P90's and humbuckers too

    I think this would be good vault material.

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