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Thread: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

  1. #21
    Our Neighbor Totoro FuseG4's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Patents exist so that people will have an incentive to invent. Every time bugera copies something right when the patent is about to expire, its taking away mesa's privilage to profit from something they made. Why should they innovate if they can't turn a long term profit?
    The thing is that BOTH bugera and the boutique guy don't really make a difference.

    Bugera's amp is NOT a perfect subsitute for Mesa's anything. People who are gonna buy a mesa will still go for a mesa and people who want a cheap amp will go buy a bugera. Because demand for a product is based on the number of consumers who are willing & ABLE to buy, and almost no one who is really able to buy a mesa will buy bugera instead, the demand for mesas wont change.

    As for the boutique guy copying an amp, well sometimes he's churning out an amp that isn't in current production. If Fender's mad at some guy for cloning a 66 tremolux, its kinda their fault for not offereing a reissue tremolux. If there's no patent then the American Way is to match supply with demand. Go copy it.
    But the boutique guys aren't producing so many amps that people will stop buying from the big manufacturers. Fender's got a ton of unique products at lower price points and when they move a ton of those like they do it more than makes up for the guys who went and bought tremoluxes.

  2. #22
    Cat In The Hatministrator stevie_bees's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Yeah, it's a big ole market out there, and you can't fault anyone for trying to make their way in it. Even if it's a little morally skewed!


    Do what I do. Hold tight and pretend it's a plan!

  3. #23
    BadHairDayologist Empty Pockets's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    you can absolutely fault Bugera simply because what they make is cheap crap.

    sorry if i sound bitter but i just had another broken one returned to my shop last week.

    it just drives me crazy; i don't understand the mentality. Item X is amazing, does everything it's supposed to with extremely high quality, and has a price tag to match. It's available on the used market for more than half off it's full retail price and the used ones are just as nice because Item X is so well-made that it does not break down.

    Of course, as soon as Item Y shows up, which isn't nearly as good as Item X, but is similar and costs the same BRAND NEW as a used Item X...people go for Item Y on the merit that IT'S CHEAPER. What the **** kind of sense does that make?!

    I mean i'm a broke and working guitarist too. I worked as a paper boy when i was a teenager to save money for my gear. But i made sure i got NICE STUFF so that i wouldn't have to buy MORE gear if i didn't need to.

    I mean the copying of the design isn't what bothers me; it's the CHEAPENING of the design, and simultaneous comparisons. "WE USED THE CHEAPEST PARTS AND LABOR TO GET THE COST DOWN TO GET THEM OUT OF THE STORES AND ONTO THE REPAIR RACKS AS SOON AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE"

    because that's happened to every Bugera amp that's ever come into my store and left.

    you take it out the box, it sounds like a decent tube amp, y'know like a Crate Palomino or a Epiphone Valve Junior, then you get mad at me because as a salesmen i should've convinced you to just spend the extra couple of hundred bucks and gone with the Vox, Marshall or Fender instead of just letting you take the amp that THE INTERNET told you was the solution to all your problems. Well now the circuit board is melting and you're gonna be paying that extra couple of hundred bucks just to have it looked at by an amp tech...and that's just a bench fee.

    I guess it's just naivety. So many people walk into my shop and the first thing they say is, "I don't know anything about guitar" so they think an amp is an amp is an amp...but then they don't listen to me, a guy who's been certifiably obsessed with guitar since his pubes grew in when i tell them, actually, some amps are Cadillacs, some are Ferraris and some amps are Hyundais.
    green globe burned black by sunn

  4. #24
    Ultimate Tone Slacker eschoendorff's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevie_bees View Post
    So copying an amp and selling it at a high price as a clone is fine, but copying an amp and selling it at a lower price so people can afford it is bad?

    I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, just so you know that this isn't an attack on you, but both are taking somebody else's work and selling it on for their own gain. Now, before you jump down my throat, I'm just trying to stimulate discussion. I don't condone what Bugera has done, but they've obviously spotted an opportunity, whether it's a patent running out, or a loophole in legislation/law/whatever. The "booteek" clone builders are doing the same thing by selling a copy of a vintage amp, which is not their own design. I think that both have their place, and you as a potential customer have the choice as which way you go, but it's not fair to rag on one without the other.
    Just my opinion of course!
    Well, the other difference is that - as far as I am aware - all of the clone manufacturers produce amps that have been out of production for some time (not counting reissues). Look at Metro Amps. They clone Marshalls, but it's not like they're cloning JVMs or JCM 2000 models. They clone amps that have been out of regular production for 30 years!

    Bugera is cloning amps that are either recent production or, in some cases, are still in production (The "Trirec? anyone?). They are infringing on the original manufacturer's market share. Therein lies my problem. If Bugera stopped at the 1960 model, then I'd be fine. It would be just another amp I wouldn't buy.

  5. #25
    Toneologist serizawa's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Hell, I'll still take one of them Matchless copies.
    For people feeling the need to try something experimental.
    http://myspace.com/kchoq

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    BadHairDayologist Empty Pockets's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Hell, it'll sound great until it breaks.
    green globe burned black by sunn

  7. #27
    Toneologist serizawa's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    That's a buncha heehaw. I hear that all over the place on forums, but everyone I know in person who owns one of these amps swears by them.

    Shortscale.org is one of the few forums that has a small collective of Bugera users and they all enjoy theirs a ton.
    For people feeling the need to try something experimental.
    http://myspace.com/kchoq

  8. #28
    Mojo's Minions SirJackdeFuzz's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominus View Post
    That's a handy feature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Binnerscot View Post
    Yeah it is cool, they call it a volume knob....
    Hey Binnerscot, i know your post is meant to be "funny", but i think this feature that dominus is referring too, is more like that of the new'ish Egnater and Vox AC4 amps, where if really does scale down the wattge of an amp.

    Something that (afaik) Mesa has not done yet.
    I am not referring to their 5W/15W/30W switching modes, but one where you have 100 diff options from 100W right down to 1W.


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  9. #29
    Mojo's Minions SirJackdeFuzz's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by serizawa View Post
    That's a buncha heehaw. I hear that all over the place on forums, but everyone I know in person who owns one of these amps swears by them.

    Shortscale.org is one of the few forums that has a small collective of Bugera users and they all enjoy theirs a ton.
    I have met TWO 1960 Bugera owners in my own city in the last month, and both gig with theirs.

    So far, so good.

    Going to see a gig this week end (got comp tickets) to see the one bloke w the 1960.
    Will report back after said show.
    Tele, SG, LP Jr, '76 Ibanez Artist & Tokai LS92 + FUZZ boxes into a '66 AB165 Bassman & 2X12 (55Hz Greenbacks) / '73 Orange OR120 & 2X12 (V30 & SwampThang) / Orange Thunderverb 50 & PPC212 / Marshall Vintage Modern 50 & 2X12 Genz Benz g-Flex / Laney Klipp / Laney AOR Pro Tube 100


    "...it's a tree with a microphone" - Leslie West

  10. #30
    Mojo's Minions misterwhizzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJackdeFuzz View Post
    I have met TWO 1960 Bugera owners in my own city in the last month, and both gig with theirs.

    So far, so good.

    Going to see a gig this week end (got comp tickets) to see the one bloke w the 1960.
    Will report back after said show.
    So they actually copied this one decently. Doesn't mean they didn't steal the IP. I think the vast majority of amp manufacturer's at some level or another copy designs. Randall Smith got his start modding Fenders, didn't he? The difference is he never sold a Tremobux or a Super Beberb.

  11. #31
    Toneologist sbecker67's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    Seriously, don't support theft. I have no problem with products being built in China. I just have a problem with people's hard work being ripped off to the detriment of the original designer and the consumer.
    Get over yourself. Once the patents run out it's not theft, it's free enterprise. There's this little thing called 'competition'; you may have heard of it, it's what drives our economy. I bet your ethics don't prevent you from buying a SD humbucking pick-up, do they? If you really believe this way then don't turn on your TV unless it's an RCA or Zenith because they invented the majority of technology, i.e color, stereo sound, remote control, considered standard today and everyone else is just stealing. I'd wager that the design of half, or more, the gear you own has it's origins elsewhere.

    Why is it the only time I see this type of arrogance is when the product is budget priced and of lesser quality?

    Next time you go to the pharmacy to fill a prescription don't you dare accept the generic version!!!
    Last edited by sbecker67; 03-30-2010 at 06:33 AM.

  12. #32
    Toneologist sbecker67's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuseG4 View Post
    Oh yeah I'm with you on that. Buying an amp clone wired by some guy you found is one thing....
    Why? If you're 'anti-copy' your'e 'anti-copy', you can't be selective based solely on the quality of the copy.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuseG4 View Post
    Buying something from a company whose business plan is to copy something popular and go way cheap on it? That sucks. ...
    This from the Epiphone Les Paul owner. And that Gibson owns Epi is irrelevant; it's still a cheaper version of the original.



    You people don't get it. Mesa has enjoyed the protection of these patent's for decades and have made a ton of money as is their right. Anyone who would buy a Mesa today will still buy the Mesa tomorrow regardless of what Behringer produces.

  13. #33
    Cheesesteakologist phil_104's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJackdeFuzz View Post
    I have met TWO 1960 Bugera owners in my own city in the last month, and both gig with theirs.

    So far, so good.

    Going to see a gig this week end (got comp tickets) to see the one bloke w the 1960.
    Will report back after said show.
    Hopefully for the player everything goes well. I know 3 people who own Bugera amps. 2 of them had them repaired during the first 6 months of use, 1 sold his off after. The third one has his amp completely die on him, in the middle of the gig.

  14. #34
    Mojo's Minions mwalluk's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Very interesting thread. However, this is not the first time a company copied off another company. Epi, ESP, Schecter, Ibanez, have all used the "les Paul" style bodywork. Ibanez, Schecter have taken the "fender Strat" style. Line 6 models amp's for crying out loud. Randall RM series models the preamps of every amp out there. You wanna look at efx pedals?!?!?! All of them take a certain circuit and tweak it out. It's all been done before.

    My point is musicians will buy what they know. Those amps are good for novice to intermediate musicians. As their skill, knowledge and passion grows so will their gear. Think back to when you first started playing and the age, I'm sure you weren't rocking out a PRS into a MESA. Not to mention style changes. As you grew, so did the quality of gear. You could afford better gear and went with quality gear. These amps are to work your way up.

    NOw MESA makes one hell of a product, I'll give them that. I had the luxury of rocking out a DUal Rect for a while. The thing is, you can get it used and still be in great shape, however it depends on the previous owner. They could have torched the inside and sold you a crap amp that needs work, but thats the risk you take.
    Quote Originally Posted by grumptruck
    No I think James and Dave have that covered. You are obviously rocking way to hard.
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  15. #35
    Uptonogood
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    So they actually copied this one decently. Doesn't mean they didn't steal the IP. I think the vast majority of amp manufacturer's at some level or another copy designs. Randall Smith got his start modding Fenders, didn't he? The difference is he never sold a Tremobux or a Super Beberb.
    Fender's designs themselves, which are pretty much the inspiration for most valve amplifiers out there, like Marshall (which spawned tons of variations itself) and Mesa for example, are based on RCA designs.

    So yeah they're all a bunch of copycats if you put it like that.
    Last edited by tc; 03-30-2010 at 12:55 PM.

  16. #36
    Electron Herder glassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirJackdeFuzz View Post
    Hey Binnerscot, i know your post is meant to be "funny", but i think this feature that dominus is referring too, is more like that of the new'ish Egnater and Vox AC4 amps, where if really does scale down the wattge of an amp.

    Something that (afaik) Mesa has not done yet.
    I am not referring to their 5W/15W/30W switching modes, but one where you have 100 diff options from 100W right down to 1W.
    Power scaling is a licencable feature and is available to any builder for a reasonable per unit fee. The company is London Power and it is based in Ontario.
    Now operating part time: Glassman Tube Amps...repairs, rebuilds, restorations & modifications of tube equipment.

    Still building: GlassMan Amplifiers (25 watt, all tube, single channel w/reverb, single 12" combo) and some more designs in the works.

    Located in Fort Wayne, IN


    Note: I've "parked" my website in case anyone has been looking for it. I moved locations and haven't updated the site to reflect this.

  17. #37
    Her Little Mojo Minion DankStar's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    I'd play one if it was in front of me, but probably wouldn't buy one, if that makes any sense.

    even if it ends up working ok, you still (eventually) gotta do that walk of shame to an amp tech to have it retubed and biased, and he looks at you like you asked to put shiny rims on a pinto.

  18. #38
    Toneologist serizawa's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    I picture the kind of person that's embarrassed about taking one brand of amp in as opposed to another has trouble talking to wimminz, too.
    For people feeling the need to try something experimental.
    http://myspace.com/kchoq

  19. #39
    Bacteriaolgoist GuitarDoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbecker67 View Post
    Get over yourself. Once the patents run out it's not theft, it's free enterprise. There's this little thing called 'competition'; you may have heard of it, it's what drives our economy. I bet your ethics don't prevent you from buying a SD humbucking pick-up, do they? If you really believe this way then don't turn on your TV unless it's an RCA or Zenith because they invented the majority of technology, i.e color, stereo sound, remote control, considered standard today and everyone else is just stealing. I'd wager that the design of half, or more, the gear you own has it's origins elsewhere.

    Why is it the only time I see this type of arrogance is when the product is budget priced and of lesser quality?

    Next time you go to the pharmacy to fill a prescription don't you dare accept the generic version!!!

    Absolutely correct. Competition is what makes our country great, and what makes good quality products available at reasonable prices. I would go out on a limb and say that in reality over 90% of your gear is "copied". There is not one single automobile on the road today that isn't a blatant copy of someone elses design. It's ok to express your opinions about products. This is what helps the comsumer to be more informed so they can buy wisely. But it is NOT ok to slander a company with such accusations as "STEALING".

    Alright, tell us your experiences that a PARTICULAR product may be cheap (not worthy of spending your hard-earned-money on), but leave the cheap shots out of it. You only ruin your own credibility. In the end, the quality of the product proves itself (remember Yugo, American Motors, Studebaker, Pinto?)

    I have no feelings for Bugera one way or the other, but it is ultimately MY choice whether or not I buy their products. And only I will reap the benefits or frustrations from my decisions. I appreciate other's opinions about products, but the slander and cheap shots only makes me want to support that company.

  20. #40
    Her Little Mojo Minion DankStar's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by serizawa View Post
    I picture the kind of person that's embarrassed about taking one brand of amp in as opposed to another has trouble talking to wimminz, too.
    good zing

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