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Thread: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

  1. #41
    King Midas to Cheap Guitars dominus's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." Isaiah 13:16

    "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31:17-18


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  2. #42
    Toneologist serizawa's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Not meant to cause any harm, I swear.

    But really? If the player likes what ever they've got, they shouldn't waste their time worrying about what others think.
    For people feeling the need to try something experimental.
    http://myspace.com/kchoq

  3. #43
    Bacteriaolgoist GuitarDoc's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuseG4 View Post
    Patents exist so that people will have an incentive to invent. Every time bugera copies something right when the patent is about to expire, its taking away mesa's privilage to profit from something they made.
    Actually, patents exist to allow a company a period of time to have the priviledge of profitting from their product without any competition. THAT is the incentive to invent. Hopefully, they can recoup their R & D costs as well as make a profit during the time limits of the patent. When the patent runs out, if they have created a good product, they will continue to make profits even in the face of free market competition.

    Motrin continues to make big profits even in the face of competition from Advil, Nuprin, and all of the hundreds of formula-"stealing" generic ibuprofen manufacturers.


    Why should they innovate if they can't turn a long term profit?
    If they can't continue to turn a profit, it is not due to competition (copying or "stealing"), or their patent running out, but poor company management, poor marketing, or poor product quality, or any combination.

    I REALLy, REALLY appreciate all of you forum members who give advice, opinions, and help to the rest of us, but you really need to come down to reality and be fair without the slander. "Stealing" is a legal term which implies breaking the law. This doesn't occur if your design is copied after the patent runs out.

  4. #44
    firstlessonologist guitfiddle's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    So they actually copied this one decently. Doesn't mean they didn't steal the IP. I think the vast majority of amp manufacturer's at some level or another copy designs. Randall Smith got his start modding Fenders, didn't he? The difference is he never sold a Tremobux or a Super Beberb.
    No, but he did sell around 200 or so Princeton amps that he then modded before Fender caught on and made him stop. Randall ain't above lifting the good parts of anyone elses' designs.

    BTW...Marshall would not exist without having taken a design from someone else and making it cheaper.
    Last edited by guitfiddle; 03-30-2010 at 10:04 AM.
    - Tom

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly
    Some people make the wine. Some people drink the wine. And some people sniff the cork and wonder what might have been.
    The Eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn of the Crow.

  5. #45
    Cheesesteakologist phil_104's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominus View Post
    How is saying that this amp is a cheap copy of a Mesa, made cheaply overseas with cheap components, a statement that qualifies one as being a cork sniffer?

    Mesa is a better made amp, and although sound is subjective, I'd be willing to say that most people would agree the original made in the states with good components will sound better. So I don't get it... people who buy the good stuff because it's reliable and sounds good are cork sniffers because they don't buy the knock off from China? Investment in quality gear = corksniffing?

    I might be missing your point completely, but I don't get it...

  6. #46
    Mojo's Minions misterwhizzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbecker67 View Post
    Get over yourself. Once the patents run out it's not theft, it's free enterprise. There's this little thing called 'competition'; you may have heard of it, it's what drives our economy.
    Not exclusively. That's what patents are all about. You put in a bunch of research, and you get to reap the benefits for a specified period of time. And we're talking about the Triple Rectifier. Mesa just made updates to this amp this year.

    I bet your ethics don't prevent you from buying a SD humbucking pick-up, do they?
    No, for several reasons. First of all, they're supporting American workers, and I'm a proud nationalist. Secondly, they're not pumping out cheap copies. Who else has a P-Rails? Who thinks a Duncan Distortion is the same as anything else out on the market? How does SD tell you the SPECIFIC differences between Blackouts and EMGs if they're just ripoffs?

    If you really believe this way then don't turn on your TV unless it's an RCA or Zenith because they invented the majority of technology, i.e color, stereo sound, remote control, considered standard today and everyone else is just stealing. I'd wager that the design of half, or more, the gear you own has it's origins elsewhere.
    But this isn't what's happening. I would argue they don't even understand the technology they're putting into stores. If someone innovates, I'm willing to pay for that. They're building on existing technology. If this didn't happen, every single car company would have to reinvent wiring, transmissions, the internal combustion engine, etc. But I can tell the difference between a Nissan and a BMW, BECAUSE THEY'RE DIFFERENT.

    Why is it the only time I see this type of arrogance is when the product is budget priced and of lesser quality?
    What arrogance? I'm looking out for you, whether you realize it or not. If Randall Smith can't get paid to innovate, he won't do it anymore. If Steven Fryette can't get paid to innovate, he won't do it anymore. If Mike Soldano can't get paid to innovate, he won't do it anymore. That's the point. I own a Korean-made amp, and the one I plan on buying next will be made in China. And it IS a cheap knock-off. But it's being designed, marketed, and sold by the guy who came up with the original design. It's not being stolen.

    Next time you go to the pharmacy to fill a prescription don't you dare accept the generic version!!!
    This isn't even the same thing. If you can't afford your medicine, you need to get it somewhere. It's potentially a life and death difference. If you can't afford a Mesa, you save up your money, or you realize that the REASON you can't afford a Mesa is they're being ripped off and forced to charge more money due to the decreased volume.

  7. #47
    King Midas to Cheap Guitars dominus's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by phil_104 View Post
    How is saying that this amp is a cheap copy of a Mesa, made cheaply overseas with cheap components, a statement that qualifies one as being a cork sniffer?

    Mesa is a better made amp, and although sound is subjective, I'd be willing to say that most people would agree the original made in the states with good components will sound better. So I don't get it... people who buy the good stuff because it's reliable and sounds good are cork sniffers because they don't buy the knock off from China? Investment in quality gear = corksniffing?

    I might be missing your point completely, but I don't get it...
    Well, if the American made one sounds better, it's not a copy then, is it? Make up your mind.
    "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." Isaiah 13:16

    "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31:17-18


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  8. #48
    John Mayer's Mankini ImmortalSix's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    I guess now would be a bad time to release my new Deluxe Rhubarb design

  9. #49
    firstlessonologist guitfiddle's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImmortalSix View Post
    I guess now would be a bad time to release my new Deluxe Rhubarb design
    I'll put out the Vibey Lox at the same time and see if we can get some market share.

    - Tom

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly
    Some people make the wine. Some people drink the wine. And some people sniff the cork and wonder what might have been.
    The Eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn of the Crow.

  10. #50
    Mojo's Minions misterwhizzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by guitfiddle View Post
    I'll put out the Vibey Lox at the same time and see if we can get some market share.

    I want to work with your marketing department on my Parshall PBJ line.

  11. #51
    firstlessonologist guitfiddle's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    I want to work with your marketing department on my Parshall PBJ line.



    Just wait til they release my new Hampeg SVP
    - Tom

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankly
    Some people make the wine. Some people drink the wine. And some people sniff the cork and wonder what might have been.
    The Eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn of the Crow.

  12. #52
    Cheesesteakologist phil_104's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominus View Post
    Well, if the American made one sounds better, it's not a copy then, is it? Make up your mind.
    It is a copy, in the same sense that you can copy a Les Paul with cheeper material. It won't sound as good, but it's still a copy.

    ''Copy'' can allude to design, not only building material or quality (of sound in this case). It is possible to copy a pedal using cheaper components. It might now sound as good, but it still a copy.

    My mind is made up, and I still don't see your point. Then again, I'm trying to understand a point initially made by an lol-cat picture, lol.

  13. #53
    Mojo's Minions misterwhizzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by guitfiddle View Post



    Just wait til they release my new Hampeg SVP
    Loaded with chewy distortion!

    Goes great with the all-new Dr. Pepper Spaz 18.

  14. #54
    Kablamminator ratherdashing's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominus View Post
    Well, if the American made one sounds better, it's not a copy then, is it? Make up your mind.
    See, now you're just being argumentative for sport. That's the definition of a troll. Don't bother playing dumb.

    However, since I'm a glutton for punishment I'll play along for a while.


    No, it's not an exact copy. That's plainly obvious from looking at it. But that's not really the point, and unless you have some kind of intellectual deficit you know that already.

    The point - and this is the point with everything Behringer/Bugera makes - is that they didn't do any design work whatsoever. They don't design; they steal designs. There's really no other word for it other than "theft", because in spite of what the law says, that's what they do.

    There are two simple truths when it comes to making things:

    1. Designing a new product is a long, tedious, frustrating, error-prone, and expensive process, but ...

    2. You can't build something that has not been designed.

    Most companies understand these truths, and dedicate significant resources to design. To some entrepreneurs, "significant resources" means "every waking hour of my life". They wake up and think about design. They think about design in the shower, while they eat, in the car, on the toilet ... everywhere, all the time. They come up with a concept. They build prototypes. They re-build prototypes. They make changes. They make mistakes (and learn from them, if they're smart). They give up and start over. Eventually, if they've done everything right and no outside forces have intervened, they end up with a finished design that's ready for production.

    This is how every product begins. Everything we have exists because a smart, creative, innovative person poured everything he had into a design. If all goes well, the designer's reward is a successful product.

    Behringer apparently decided that they didn't want to bother with the pain and expense of designing something, and wanted to skip straight to the part where they build successful products. They are design parasites. Using legal loopholes, they take someone else's design, re-engineer it to make it look a bit different and cheaper to build, and crank it out of some Chinese factory. Yes, what they do is (sometimes) legal, but "legal" and "right" are rarely the same thing.

    It's one thing to do this once, or maybe for a few products, but this is Behringer's entire business model. They haven't ever designed an original product. I dare you to find a Behringer product that isn't either a direct clone of something else, or a rough copy of something else.

    And again, no, obviously a Bugera amp made with cheap components and less-than-reliable manufacturing techniques isn't going to be an exact copy of a hand-built Mesa anymore than spam is going to taste like prosciutto even though they both come from a pig. No one's disputing that. The issue here is that they are intellectual property thieves who have crafted a business on exploitation, loopholes, and cutting corners.

    I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their own money, but don't kid yourself into thinking you're supporting a good, honest business. If you designed something great tomorrow, Behringer wouldn't think twice about trying to steal it.

  15. #55
    Mojo's Minions mwalluk's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Now does this make SOldano a copy cat since he essentially hot rodded a MArshall?!?!??!
    Quote Originally Posted by grumptruck
    No I think James and Dave have that covered. You are obviously rocking way to hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gear Used
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  16. #56
    Mojo's Minions misterwhizzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwalluk View Post
    Now does this make SOldano a copy cat since he essentially hot rodded a MArshall?!?!??!
    Do you read?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    If Mike Soldano can't get paid to innovate, he won't do it anymore. That's the point. I own a Korean-made amp, and the one I plan on buying next will be made in China. And it IS a cheap knock-off. But it's being designed, marketed, and sold by the guy who came up with the original design. It's not being stolen.
    No. He took an existing design and IMPROVED upon it. Go ahead and tell me the Bugeras are an improvement over their "inspiration." I'll wait for your credibility to skyrocket.

  17. #57
    Kablamminator ratherdashing's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by mwalluk View Post
    Now does this make SOldano a copy cat since he essentially hot rodded a MArshall?!?!??!
    And Marshall cloned a Fender, and Fender copied radio designs ... blah blah blah on back to the first guy who whacked two stones together and made a spearhead.

    I'm having a hard time understanding why some people can't seem to tell the difference between basing something off an existing design, and copying an existing design. It's a plainly simple thing from my perspective.

    Take a look at the words I bolded up there. Mike Soldano didn't set out to build a clone of a Marshall, build it cheaply, and sell it at below Marshall's price. He took an existing design (the 1959 Super Lead which, at the time, wasn't made anymore) and made some key changes to the circuit to get more distortion and harmonics out of it. At that point, it ceased being a Super Lead Plexi and became a Soldano SLO-100. The design, though based on the same platform, was significantly different. Nobody could possibly mistake an SLO for a Plexi, and nobody would go out to buy an SLO hoping it will get them that classic Plexi tone for less money (the SLO-100 is WAY more expensive than a Plexi, in fact).

    Behringer doesn't improve on existing designs, or modify existing designs to provide a key feature that the original did not have. They steal designs, make some cosmetic changes, build them cheap, and undercut the price of the original. Anyone who legitimately thinks that what Soldano, Bogner, etc. do is remotely like what Behringer does is either stupid or delusional.

  18. #58
    Toneologist sbecker67's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    ..they're supporting American workers, and I'm a proud nationalist. .
    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    I own a Korean-made amp, and the one I plan on buying next will be made in China.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    If Randall Smith can't get paid to innovate, he won't do it anymore...
    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    ...If you can't afford your medicine, you need to get it somewhere.

    I'm sorry; please refer to GuitarDoc's posts regarding patent's. He actually took the time to explain it quite well. Maybe then you'll see all the analogies and arguments I made ARE relevant and that you may be a little confused. Your arguments are on opposite sides of the fence, first against copies and then in support.

    Behringer and GFS are just the generic prescription drug manufacturers of the music industry and "if you can't afford your gear, you need to get it somewhere".

  19. #59
    Mojo's Minions mwalluk's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    Do you read?



    No. He took an existing design and IMPROVED upon it. Go ahead and tell me the Bugeras are an improvement over their "inspiration." I'll wait for your credibility to skyrocket.
    That was sarcasm on my part. Yes, Soldano has "improved" on Marshalls design, I agree on that for the most part. I prefer Marshalls for my style more so than Soldanos, but that is subjective.

    What Bugeras did was make a watered down version of Mesa think B52s and Peavey XXX. They made it cheap quality. My biggest problem is unlike those two affirmentioned amps, they are charging around $1200 for it!
    Quote Originally Posted by grumptruck
    No I think James and Dave have that covered. You are obviously rocking way to hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gear Used
    PRS CE 22 (Custom 5 / 59)
    Gibson Les Paul (Screaming Demon / Pearly Gates)
    Mesa Stiletto Ace
    Gurus 5015
    Mesa Widebody 1X12
    Pedalboard

  20. #60
    Mojo's Minions misterwhizzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: look at what Bugera went and copied this time around.

    This is what I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    This isn't even the same thing. If you can't afford your medicine, you need to get it somewhere. It's potentially a life and death difference.
    And this is what was quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by misterwhizzy View Post
    ...If you can't afford your medicine, you need to get it somewhere.
    In one scenario, a person dies. And in the other, a person can't buy a brand name amp. Amazing what context does for an argument, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by sbecker67 View Post
    I'm sorry; please refer to GuitarDoc's posts regarding patent's. He actually took the time to explain it quite well. Maybe then you'll see all the analogies and arguments I made ARE relevant and that you may be a little confused. Your arguments are on opposite sides of the fence, first against copies and then in support.
    This is absolutely false. You're oversimplifying the situation. I'm talking about exact copies of current amps. THE PATENTS ARE STILL IN EFFECT. What do you think I'm confused about? I'm pro-innovation and anti-theft. I've been consistent throughout.

    "If you can't afford your gear, you need to get it somewhere".
    No, you DON'T need to get it somewhere. Substitute Ferrari for "your gear." They're both luxury items.

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