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Thread: Help from any computer gurus out there

  1. #61
    Braindeadologist GoldenVulture's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    Um...what? Briggleman, I really appreciate the help, and I have no idea what just happened. Did I read the meter wrong? What would make you think I'm trying to mess with anyone?

    I plugged my PC tower into a power meter, and the power meter into the wall outlet. I set the meter to read watts, and turned on the computer. I can retest it if those numbers seem off to you...

    EDIT: It's possible briggleman isn't coming back. I honestly don't know what that was all about. If anyone else knows anything about PSUs, I would appreciate the help.
    Yep, I don't know what briggleman is on about.[ previous post ]

    Run reaper with the power meter on, see if it draws lot's more.

    If not you can probably discard the PS being the problem.

    PS: The drivers you're using, I'm presuming they are ASIO drivers?
    Last edited by GoldenVulture; 06-30-2011 at 06:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    briggleman, I think you're on the right track. I'd be willing to replace my power supply rather than switch to external drive if lack of power were the cause. If an inactive hard drive is enough to max out the power, I must be cutting it pretty close anyway. I'd like to diagnose this further before acting on it, and I'm wondering, is there a way to see how much power I'm using? Some software that lets me see how much strain I'm putting on my PSU?

    uOpt, you're completely right that there could be a number of other causes, but we know for sure at this point that the crashes are directly related the addition of that third hard drive. That's when these crashes started initially, and the computer is stable again when it's unplugged.
    I don't think you have verified that crashes happen with the drive and not without enough times. How often did you?

  3. #63
    Something Cool uOpt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    Thanks briggleman. It turns out I already had a plug-in power meter. I found that my PC draws about 140W with the two original drives, and around 160W with all three drives plugged in. That's when the system is more or less idle. Should I push the system to see how high I run the meter?
    That is normal idle draw. Under heavy load it will go up. But you have already verified that you computer does not crash if you load it with 4x mprime, so you do not have a plain heat problem or a plain power problem.

    And your crash happens under light load so sniffing up this track isn't promising.

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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    Um...what? Briggleman, I really appreciate the help, and I have no idea what just happened. Did I read the meter wrong? What would make you think I'm trying to mess with anyone?

    I plugged my PC tower into a power meter, and the power meter into the wall outlet. I set the meter to read watts, and turned on the computer. I can retest it if those numbers seem off to you...

    EDIT: It's possible briggleman isn't coming back. I honestly don't know what that was all about. If anyone else knows anything about PSUs, I would appreciate the help.
    Your problem and all the readings are perfectly normal, briggleman was lacking wifey attention or something.

    Your bigger problem, which makes remote debugging frustrating, is that you don't have more parts to cross-test with.

    In your case I would:
    - try Windows XP 32 bit to rule out driver problems.
    - try a different mainboard (as I said, I had problems like this with expensive Asus boards).
    - try a new power supply.

    I am not buying your 3rd drive theory. Partially because the crash happens both on the USB 3 and USB 2 ports, if anything some specific ports might be mallig but more importantly because the drive was idle. I think what happened is that you just wiggled things while messing with the drive and that made it work. Try to re-verify crash and non-crash more times.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Tone Member briggleman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Yes, I was on the rag or something

    First, trying a 32bit OS with 12 gigs of memory is not a good idea. 32 bit only sees 3.5 gig and will run with 4 gigs, but will cause more issues than solves.

    Folks, my last post issue had to do with this: I deal with this stuff everyday and I expect people to know as much as I do. When he just happened to have a power meter and had not used it yet...... well, to me it was common sense and thought "OK, what is up with this dude... then when he had not yet put it under load.... another thing I would have already done.. but you know what.... he does not do this everyday and I over reacted.

    Lets not go replacing drivers and software when we know these things...

    1) It worked before the installation of the third drive

    2) It quit working with the installation of the third drive.

    3) It starting working again with the removal of the third drive.

    Its either a compatibility issue with the 3rd hard drive be it driver incompatibility or does not like talking to the other drives.

    Its a power issue due to the addition of the hard drive.

    The hard drive is defective.

    Apologize to the OP for my paranoia. However, I have worn out my welcome... Good Luck.

  6. #66
    Something Cool uOpt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Trying XP 32 bit will tell us whether the drivers for 64 vista are at fault. That's an important piece in the puzzle. It's not for permanent, just to isolate the error.

    All modern 32 bit OS offer PAE which makes them able to use > 4 GB RAM. The only exception is XP which removed PAE support in SP2. So don't use that Mickeysoft junk and you are fine

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    Ultimate Tone Member briggleman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
    Trying XP 32 bit will tell us whether the drivers for 64 vista are at fault. That's an important piece in the puzzle. It's not for permanent, just to isolate the error.

    All modern 32 bit OS offer PAE which makes them able to use > 4 GB RAM. The only exception is XP which removed PAE support in SP2. So don't use that Mickeysoft junk and you are fine
    I think he is running windows 7. If it was vista I would not even bother trying to diagnosis the issue. It was almost as bad as Windows Me!

    Also unless the software is aware of PAE (Physical address extension) support, it does not matter and that is why more issues may arise rather than be solved. I just want to keep the diagnostics simple. We know the cause, we just do not know why yet.
    Last edited by briggleman; 06-20-2011 at 07:22 AM.

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    Braindeadologist GoldenVulture's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    I'm thinking crappy chipsets on the motherboard, as well as maybe a sus Win7 driver.

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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by briggleman View Post
    I think he is running windows 7. If it was vista I would not even bother trying to diagnosis the issue. It was almost as bad as Windows Me!
    Windows 7 uses the same drivers as Vista. So if you suspect a driver problem win7 == vista.

    Quote Originally Posted by briggleman View Post
    Also unless the software is aware of PAE (Physical address extension) support, it does not matter and that is why more issues may arise rather than be solved. I just want to keep the diagnostics simple. We know the cause, we just do not know why yet.
    We do?

    I don't know why you brought up the stupid RAM question. A xp/32 test would be to confirm or deny whether the vista 64 bit drivers (used on win7) are broken. Doesn't matter how much RAM it detects.

  10. #70
    Ultimate Tone Member briggleman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Looks like I stepped on a toe. Again sorry. Not trying to say you are wrong. In my experience, I have found the drivers have been re-written for Windows 7. This is not a Vista system.....Thank Goodness!! Like you, I have seen Windows XP drivers work on Vista and Windows 7. This system has 12 gigs of RAM. One of my earlier suggestions was to move the ram chips front to back to see if the crash were to happen sooner rather than later under load.

    We need all of the memory to be active for this to happen. A driver that cannot access it will not rule out the possibility of a driver memory conflict. That is all I am trying to do. If you think that is stupid..... well, not in my book.

    Again, at the moment we know the lack of a third hard drive lets the system run in a stable fashion. That points us to the previous most likely issues I mentioned. I am not saying your suggestions are STUPID, just not likely. Also this is the easier diagnostics for our OP.

    We are all trying to help the OP.

  11. #71
    Ultimate Tone Member briggleman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenVulture View Post
    I'm thinking crappy chipsets on the motherboard, as well as maybe a sus Win7 driver.
    I have seen that (bad chipsets) as well also. Usually with a bad chipset other issues manifest themselves which our OP does not seem to have so that goes to the back of my list for now but it is something to keep in mind.

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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    I think you are getting way off track. The testing done is by no means sufficient to say that removing the third HD was actually the cause, and not just the wiggling. This needs to be re-confirmed by getting it in and out a couple times.

    The chipset is Intel's X58 which should be fine. Whether Asus is able to correctly integrate it into a mainboard a different matter.

    Want to bet whether the drivers for this device have separate win7 and vista drivers? My money is on they don't.

  13. #73
    Ultimate Tone Member briggleman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
    I think you are getting way off track. The testing done is by no means sufficient to say that removing the third HD was actually the cause, and not just the wiggling. This needs to be re-confirmed by getting it in and out a couple times.

    The chipset is Intel's X58 which should be fine. Whether Asus is able to correctly integrate it into a mainboard a different matter.

    Want to bet whether the drivers for this device have separate win7 and vista drivers? My money is on they don't.
    Wow, I am not here to debate you. I will admit you may be right. Take it easy. You are now getting as bad as me with my earlier misconception of what the OP was doing. The OP has to still run the power consumption test at full load. He can then do the drive disconnect and connect a few times to either confirm or invalidate the drive being the issue. The OP can then try your XP32 driver swap and see it that works. You really need to calm down...... I DID

  14. #74
    Super Toneologist SabbathFan0220's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Thanks for all the feedback guys. Let me answer these questions.

    GoldenVulture, yes, I'm using ASIO drivers.

    uOpt, I have obviously had many crashes with the third drive plugged in. With the third drive unplugged again, I pushed the computer very hard for a good 20 minutes or so but wasn't able to get it to crash.

    The crashes actually happen under heavy load, when I'm doing too many things at once in Reaper.

    Unfortunately, I don't have another operating system, mainboard, or PSU to test with. Whatever the most likely replacement part is that I need, I'm going to have to buy.

    The third drive being idle might be irrelevant, seeing as my idle power draw increased just having it plugged in, not in use.

    briggleman, thanks for coming back. No need to apologize, it was just a misunderstanding. Like I said, I appreciate the help.

    I can't imagine it's a compatibilty issue with the third drive, because the third drive is the same make and model as the first two.



    I'm not sure what the arguing is all about, we're all trying to solve the same problem here. I'm grateful for everyone's input and will entertain all ideas at this point. Whatever tests I can run to prove/disprove any theories, I will. I don't have another operating system or mainboard, but I do have a power meter. I just used the meter under heavy load, with all three drives plugged in. I pushed the system into a crash again, which occurred when I hit 220W. All three drives are plugged into the same rail, because my current PSU only has two SATA rails. One goes to the hard drives, and one goes up to the top of the tower for the external/removable SATA slot.

    Thanks again, guys. I don't want to feel like I'm taking sides, but these crashes look more and more like a power issue to me.
    "Everything must be black, like the storm of justice!"

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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    GoldenVulture, yes, I'm using ASIO drivers.
    ASI-what?

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    uOpt, I have obviously had many crashes with the third drive plugged in. With the third drive unplugged again, I pushed the computer very hard for a good 20 minutes or so but wasn't able to get it to crash.

    The crashes actually happen under heavy load, when I'm doing too many things at once in Reaper.

    Unfortunately, I don't have another operating system, mainboard, or PSU to test with. Whatever the most likely replacement part is that I need, I'm going to have to buy.

    The third drive being idle might be irrelevant, seeing as my idle power draw increased just having it plugged in, not in use.
    Do the crashes reappear if you plug the drive back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    briggleman, thanks for coming back. No need to apologize, it was just a misunderstanding. Like I said, I appreciate the help.

    I can't imagine it's a compatibilty issue with the third drive, because the third drive is the same make and model as the first two.



    I'm not sure what the arguing is all about, we're all trying to solve the same problem here. I'm grateful for everyone's input and will entertain all ideas at this point. Whatever tests I can run to prove/disprove any theories, I will. I don't have another operating system or mainboard, but I do have a power meter. I just used the meter under heavy load, with all three drives plugged in. I pushed the system into a crash again, which occurred when I hit 220W. All three drives are plugged into the same rail, because my current PSU only has two SATA rails. One goes to the hard drives, and one goes up to the top of the tower for the external/removable SATA slot.

    Thanks again, guys. I don't want to feel like I'm taking sides, but these crashes look more and more like a power issue to me.
    I don't think you have a problem with total power consumption here. Under 4x mprime (you ran one per CPU, right) you will have more CPU load than under reaper. A disk take 10-12 watts. That doesn't rule out a broken PSU.

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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    [QUOTE=uOpt;2887396]ASI-what?

    I hope your kidding? but if you're not.

    Audio Stream Input/Output (ASIO

    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Stream_Input/Output -
    Last edited by GoldenVulture; 06-20-2011 at 08:35 PM.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    The Asus forum have a section for your MB.
    - http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx...del=Sabertooth X58&page_size=20&page=1&count=539 -

    I haven't seen any problems the same as yours but some similar. I only got through the first four pages.

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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
    Do the crashes reappear if you plug the drive back in?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
    I don't think you have a problem with total power consumption here. Under 4x mprime (you ran one per CPU, right) you will have more CPU load than under reaper. A disk take 10-12 watts. That doesn't rule out a broken PSU.
    If the PSU is broken, I'm going to have to replace it. I might as well replace it with a more powerful one as long as I'm buying one anyway, right? Maybe the solution is to buy a new (and bigger) PSU, to fix either problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenVulture View Post
    The Asus forum have a section for your MB.
    - http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx...del=Sabertooth X58&page_size=20&page=1&count=539 -

    I haven't seen any problems the same as yours but some similar. I only got through the first four pages.
    That link isn't working for me, but I really appreciate you checking. Are you still suspicious of the MB?
    "Everything must be black, like the storm of justice!"

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    Braindeadologist GoldenVulture's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    Quote Originally Posted by SabbathFan0220 View Post
    That link isn't working for me, but I really appreciate you checking. Are you still suspicious of the MB?
    <yes.
    Sorry, there's a drop down box at the bottom where it says " Forum . motherboard . All " if you click on the arrow at the side of the box you get a list of boards; choose yours and click OK.


    Also; In your bios, your " SATA Configuration [ enhanced ] " how is it set. If it's set to Raid , set it to IDE
    Last edited by GoldenVulture; 06-20-2011 at 11:29 PM. Reason: bios

  20. #80
    Ultimate Tone Member briggleman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help from any computer gurus out there

    OK, so we have more info. At 220 watts total, I do not think you are exceeding what your power supply can provide, although a single 12volt rail which powers the hard drives in your case only supplies 18A x 12v = 216watts. You have two rails and the 3.3 and 5 volt wattages all total are 220, so it looks like your are within its specifications. However, like you, I still feel its a power issue and I believe you need to increase your headroom for failure.

    GV may be on to something that I remember about secondary SATA ports failing, but that was on newer motherboards so I do not know if it applies in this case.

    My recommendation at this point is a new higher wattage Power supply, one of the two I recommended. Purchase from a local big box store and if it does not fix the issue, you can return it. No harm done. They are very easy to install so this test can be done very quickly and will cause the least disturbance to your setup.

    If it is a secondary SATA issue, it could be MB drivers or hardware so that will be up to you to figure out.

    and third but not least, that third drive could have an issue internally, so don't count it out.

    Do the power supply replacement first, if it does solve the issue, we can all jump for joy, if not, at least we have a direction.

    Brad

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