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Thread: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

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    Toneologist Nacho8807's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstar216 View Post
    To sum it up:

    Musician thinking - nice strat, looks like a 62, that Marshall JCM 800 sounds great, the lead guitarist could use a bit less treble

    Bar patron thinking - Wonder if these guys know "Free bird"?
    So true I sig'd it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstar216 View Post
    Musician thinking - nice strat, looks like a 62, that Marshall JCM 800 sounds great, the lead guitarist could use a bit less treble

    Bar patron thinking - Wonder if these guys know "Free bird"?

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    One of Jerry's Kids Securb's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    My best friend is a awesome jazz piano player and a trust fund kid. He wants a 50's flying V just because he can buy one. He saw Hugh Laurie playing on on House now it is his obsession. He doesn't want to play it just wants to have it on display to piss off guitar players. Yeah he's a ****** but he is my best friend.

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    Li'l Junior Member MetalManiac's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Actually, a good relic is a kind of artwork. Youy take a normal nice Custom Shop Nitro finish- and yes a quality Nitro finish does effect tone for the better), and then the artist relics the guitar. Its not subtracting something making it less vluable, its adding something- a lot of work , and done properly, looks prety much like a genuine 50 year old guitar, it has a warm beuatiful glow and a antique aesthetic... so thats why you pay extra for a "relic".
    People realize more than you may know. They aren't stupid, and they know an antique when they see one.An antique is beuatiful in a certain way that a new guitar may not be for a certain vibe or style .Thats also the appeal of a good relic.
    A far as antiquities- the aged wire and magnets ( magnets to a lesser extent possibly from what Ive learned about magnets) do without question achieve a more mellow and vintage tone like an older guitar with old pickups , whether anyone appreciates it or not.
    As far as old guitars, they sounds worlds better than new ones. I know a guy with a bunch of old guitars, and I dnt think people really understand just how nice they sound compared to a normal newer guitar, becasue they cannot find one to play, and even if they did, they might not be sensitive enough to even relaize it.
    Unfoprtunately the guy i know wth all the big beuatuful old guitars and amps is also a fcking psyhcopath, more worried about fingerprints on his guitars than playing them. too bad - I'd love to play them but almost never do. Such is life- he can stick them sideways and take them all with him for all I give a darn.
    Last edited by MetalManiac; 09-15-2013 at 06:30 PM.
    "Anyone who understands Jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra

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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalManiac View Post
    Actually, a good relic is a kind of artwork. Youy take a normal nice Custom Shop Nitro finish- and yes a quality Nitro finish does effect tone for the better), and then the artist relics the guitar. Its not subtracting something making it less vluable, its adding something- a lot of work , and done properly, looks prety much like a genuine 50 year old guitar, it has a warm beuatiful glow and a antique aesthetic... so thats why you pay extra for a "relic".
    People realize more than you may know. They aren't stupid, and they know an antique when they see one.An antique is beuatiful in a certain way that a new guitar may not be for a certain vibe or style .Thats also the appeal of a good relic.
    A far as antiquities- the aged wire and magnets ( magnets to a lesser extent possibly from what Ive learned about magnets) do without question achieve a more mellow and vintage tone like an older guitar with old pickups , whether anyone appreciates it or not.
    As far as old guitars, they sounds worlds better than new ones. I know a guy with a bunch of old guitars, and I dnt think people really understand just how nice they sound compared to a normal newer guitar, becasue they cannot find one to play, and even if they did, they might not be sensitive enough to even relaize it.
    Unfoprtunately the guy i know wth all the big beuatuful old guitars and amps is also a fcking psyhcopath, more worried about fingerprints on his guitars than playing them. too bad - I'd love to play them but almost never do. Such is life- he can stick them sideways and take them all with him for all I give a darn.
    First, I am going to re-quote myself for a third time on the issue:

    Why would nitro make it sound any better? Nitrocellulose is a very broad term these days and each brand/type of nitrocellulose is entirely different. This is partly due to many regulations on how to make and use nitrocellulose for the effects it is supposed to have on the environment, and nitrocellulose from the '50s isn't nearly the same as today's nitrocellulose. More and more plasticizers are being added to the solvents, and cotton is replacing the cellulose (yet it is still advertised as nitrocellulose). So the argument of "nitrocellulose enhances sound because it is made of the same type of cells as wood, therefore letting it breathe" isn't valid.

    Next the argument "nitrocellulose rubs into the wood" or something similar to that. It simply does not. If you feel any thinning, that is simply wear by friction, or more of the solvents evaporating. If there is any form of sealer or filler, nothing is getting into the wood. Also, yes, nitrocellulose is a flexible finish, but just like polyurethane it will react to changes in the wood. the visibility and visual results are simply different.

    Finally there is no empirical evidence to suggest it has any change in sound. Any 'evidence' in the cases of nitrocellulose affecting sound is only of subjective human perception, and human hearing adjusts to sound over time which makes something as small as the finish material of lesser importance. What it comes down to is feel and practicality. Nitro works great as a clear finish, but it boils down to if you like the feel and aesthetics.

    I have also stripped the entire finish off of a good sounding Epiphone Les Paul, Everything was down to the bare wood, and the previous finish was a few millimeters thick (so pretty damn thick). There was absolutely no change in the sound. It didn't sound more alive, more resonant, or any of that. Finish is just a looks and aesthetics thing until you start globbing on buckets of the finish. I think buckets of finish would be stiff and not flexible, and act just as a bullet-proof (not literally - but maybe, I haven't tried/seen someone else try ) shell. At least we would probably agree on the buckets of finish being a bad thing.
    And I assume (from what you have posted before, please correct me if I am wrong - I do not want to put words into your mouth or anyone else's mouth) one of your reasonings for older guitars sounding better is the wood aging. I am going to have to disagree, for these reasons:

    - The wood is dead, if anything it slowly rots and decomposes (just like any living thing) which is heavily slowed by any protective finish.
    - Moisture levels reach an equilibrium with its surroundings. If it has a protective finish, and is air-dried/kiln-dried before finish application, the surrounding is going to have a relatively minor effect if any on the wood. A finish worn down to the bare wood (which can be achieved through nitrocellulose in general as it is a softer finish) lets the environment interact with the wood more. The moisture changes may be argued as tone-changing (the drier the better is what I normally hear), but the wood also shrinks and expands attempting to keep an equilibrium.

    How would any of this aging improve sound in any way? The decrease in overall mass from decomposition? Not if it has a hard finish. Though if the hard finish is worn down, moisture then interacts with the wood, and lost mass from decomposition may just be reintroduced through added moisture. I can not see a logical and scientific standpoint for how the age of wood affects tone in any way.

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    Li'l Junior Member MetalManiac's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myaccount876 View Post
    First, I am going to re-quote myself for a third time on the issue:



    And I assume (from what you have posted before, please correct me if I am wrong - I do not want to put words into your mouth or anyone else's mouth) one of your reasonings for older guitars sounding better is the wood aging. I am going to have to disagree, for these reasons:

    - The wood is dead, if anything it slowly rots and decomposes (just like any living thing) which is heavily slowed by any protective finish.
    - Moisture levels reach an equilibrium with its surroundings. If it has a protective finish, and is air-dried/kiln-dried before finish application, the surrounding is going to have a relatively minor effect if any on the wood. A finish worn down to the bare wood (which can be achieved through nitrocellulose in general as it is a softer finish) lets the environment interact with the wood more. The moisture changes may be argued as tone-changing (the drier the better is what I normally hear), but the wood also shrinks and expands attempting to keep an equilibrium.

    How would any of this aging improve sound in any way? The decrease in overall mass from decomposition? Not if it has a hard finish. Though if the hard finish is worn down, moisture then interacts with the wood, and lost mass from decomposition may just be reintroduced through added moisture. I can not see a logical and scientific standpoint for how the age of wood affects tone in any way.
    dude, I appreciate you! But get real. Vintage guitars sound better,. Im not the (only)one saying that. You need to read through some copies of vintage guitar magazine. See what the real world is.The don't only sound 'kind of' better..they bloiw anything made within 40 years since totally and competely away. period.That aint to say there arent some great new guitars made. They just sound different, not sweet, rich , and vintage. Understand that not much of this is going to matter if you play Justin Beiber songs or Miley Cyrus. That or super high gain new Thrash.
    This is classic amp and guitar tone. Nitro improves sound, casue you must finish a guitar, and ol skool Nitro allows the guitar to breathe and the wood to age properly.Aging opens the tone up as the wood cells dry naturally with a Notro finish and allow a natrual simbiosity to occur with the wood , and pickusp
    I am Linda. I never really played any vintage guitars, and MetalManiac isnt here now, becasue aI have a shizo-affective disorder.
    Last edited by MetalManiac; 09-15-2013 at 07:41 PM.
    "Anyone who understands Jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra

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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalManiac View Post
    dude, I appeciate you! But get real. Vintage guitars sound better,. Im not the one saying that. You need to read through some copies of vintage guitar magazine. See what the real world is.The don't only sound 'kind of' beter..they bloiw anything made within 40 years since totally and competely away. period.That sint to sya there arent some great new guitars made. They just sound different, not sweet, rich , and vintage. Understand that not much of this is going to matter if you play Justin Beiber songs or Miley Cyrus. That or super high gain new Thrash.
    This is classic amp and guitar tone. I am Linda. I never really played any vintage guitars, and MetalManiac isnt here now, becasue aI have a shizo-affective disorder.
    Well, Vintage Guitar Magazine of course is going to say vintage guitars are better, otherwise they wouldn't want to make a whole magazine brand of it! They only would say it is better simply because it is better for what they like, and their goal would be to convince others to share their mentality. I'm not saying that is wrong at all; there is nothing wrong in persuasion, but many seem to adopt a condescending attitude involving the matter.

    I honestly think it really is silly for people (and I am not accusing anyone or the magazine writers specifically) to look down on people for simply not agreeing with their own opinion. Opinions which the condescending people see as fact and refuse to admit otherwise. Their "corksniffer" attitude tends to show their own insecurity and uncertainty of their own opinions and image. They are insecure in the sense that they have to be correct by owning items that are supposed to be superior because they feel they are lacking strongly in some related aspect. A source with the opinions of authors can easily be an attempt to seek approval, and what better place to seek approval than a place where everyone shares the same insecurities?
    Last edited by Myaccount876; 09-15-2013 at 07:50 PM.

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    Li'l Junior Member MetalManiac's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myaccount876 View Post
    Well, Vintage Guitar Magazine of course is going to say vintage guitars are better, otherwise they wouldn't want to make a whole magazine brand of it! They only would say it is better simply because it is better for what they like, and their goal would be to convince others to share their mentality. I'm not saying that is wrong at all; there is nothing wrong in persuasion, but many seem to adopt a condescending attitude involving the matter.

    I honestly think it really is silly for people (and I am not accusing anyone or the magazine writers specifically) to look down on people for simply not agreeing with their own opinion. Opinions which the condescending people see as fact and refuse to admit otherwise. Their "corksniffer" attitude tends to show their own insecurity and uncertainty of their own opinions and image. They are insecure in the sense that they have to be correct by owning items that are supposed to be superior because they feel they are lacking strongly in some related aspect. A source with the opinions of authors can easily be an attempt to seek approval, and what better place to seek approval than a place where everyone shares the same insecurities?
    Yu'll see. I trust you. I know you wil, come to the right conclusion. It may be hard for you to belive. The finish means something. The ol wood means somthing..maybe it is rottong? Dude, honeslty dont know what to say, but in a classic amp, for cl;asic rock or blues, the old guitars arehave n parralel, and never wil. Im no ewx[ert as to why. Ive offered a few reasons. belive it man. Belive us, we arent stuupid. We dont get this stuff for kicks. Form follows function.Vintage guitars sound miuch much better. I can't beive you dont already belive in this. No matter. Youll play some ,. [robably more sooner thqan ;later, and ten youll know. Then we'll wel;come you inot the fold.
    "Anyone who understands Jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra

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    Mojo's Minions blueman335's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalManiac View Post
    dude, I appreciate you! But get real. Vintage guitars sound better,. Im not the (only)one saying that. You need to read through some copies of vintage guitar magazine. See what the real world is.The don't only sound 'kind of' better..they bloiw anything made within 40 years since totally and competely away. period.
    If only the world was so simple. There were a lot of mediocre guitars made back in the vintage days too. How many people, like yourself, convince themselves that an old guitar automatically sounds better ('better' being HIGHLY subjective)? Would they be able to pick out a vintage guitar by sound, out of a group of guitars in a blindfold test? Really doubtful. People hear what they want based on what they see. Some get all dreamy-eyed with vintage guitars; not like they're very objective in that state of mind. Being old, in and of itself isn't necessarily a virtue. If you knew as much about guitars as you think you do, you'd know that some guitars made after the vintage days sound 'better' than some of the older ones.
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by TattooedCarrot View Post
    So this is just another relic-bashing thread? There are many reasons for liking relic guitars that have nothing to do with "posing" or "faking" anything.
    It's all about pretending.
    "Completely Conceded Glowing Expert."
    "And Blueman, I am pretty sure you've pissed off a lot of people."
    "Wait, I know! Blueman and Lew can arm wrestle, and the winner gets to decide if 250K pots sound good or not."

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    Ultimate Tone Member tubecrunch's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by nognow View Post
    do non-musicians like "reliced" (or real vintage and beat up) guitars?
    No

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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Just noticed my last post was number 333. I am officially half-evil. You're welcome.

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    Li'l Junior Member MetalManiac's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by tubecrunch View Post
    Just noticed my last post was number 333. I am officially half-evil. You're welcome.
    Yes, actually, you are. Anything that is a multiple of the number of the beast is demonic., but you are not fully possesed yet.Thank you.
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    There were a lot of mediocre guitars made back in the vintage days too.
    I couldn't agree more. The technology we have now is amazing. The ability to precisely read and re create pickups, plecked frets ...the manufacturing process is so much more precise. There are obviously characteristics that appear as a guitar ages but the guitars coming off of production lines these days are great, especially in the entry level axes. When you think about the options we have available graphite necks, piezo pickups, locking tuners, LSR nuts and the list goes on and on.

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    Li'l Junior Member MetalManiac's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    If only the world was so simple. There were a lot of mediocre guitars made back in the vintage days too. How many people, like yourself, convince themselves that an old guitar automatically sounds better ('better' being HIGHLY subjective)? Would they be able to pick out a vintage guitar by sound, out of a group of guitars in a blindfold test? Really doubtful. People hear what they want based on what they see. Some get all dreamy-eyed with vintage guitars; not like they're very objective in that state of mind. Being old, in and of itself isn't necessarily a virtue. If you knew as much about guitars as you think you do, you'd know that some guitars made after the vintage days sound 'better' than some of the older ones.
    No such thing as a mediocre Pre-Cbs guitar. Also, securb, a nice new guitar plays extremely well, and may sound great, but it can't hold a candle to a 'old world' I guess we can say at this point, vintage guitara. Also, some of those vintage guitars play amazingly..a CNC machine cannot duplicate that craftsmanship of old world Luthiers master crafting an instrument by hand.Ain't gonna happen. It beats all the high tech crap to hell. Im not sayiong you can shred or do death wiht one of courtse through a high gain amp, but i'm talking classic amps and tone/playability. A guitar that has the best vintage tone will always play the best classic rocxk style/ heavy cl;assic metal also, thats somthing people don't understand, because it gives you back what you put into it, as only a great vintage guitar can.
    Last edited by MetalManiac; 09-15-2013 at 10:07 PM.
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    Super Toneologist Diminished Triad's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by TattooedCarrot View Post
    So this is just another relic-bashing thread? You know it's not just a musician thing. Or even a musical instrument thing. The same trend is popular (and it's not new) with other collectibles like guns, books, furniture, all kinds of things. Any collectible item you can think of that has a vintage or historic market, has this occurring.

    There are many reasons for liking relic guitars that have nothing to do with "posing" or "faking" anything. But there's no convincing anyone in this thread of it, based on the comments. But I'll throw out why I prefer them. All my guitars are relic'd - some are old and so naturally, others are straight relic jobs. Simply, I like the way it looks in the same way the guy wearing the zebra spandex like his neon pink guitar in 1987, its just a cool aesthetic, a style, as fashionable tribute to the music and related lifestyle we all dig, even if only from our bedrooms. Also, I don't worry about dinging them up when they're nice and new. They're already banged up so rather than being stored in the case in the closet, I keep them laying around the house and find that I tend to pick them up and play them much more impulsively than I would have otherwise. So in the end, I actually play them more.

    I don't understand this thing with musicians who seem to think there's certain rules to abide by in order to be a legit musician and not be seen as a poser of some kind. I remember punks in the 80's who felt if they got a record deal with a label it was selling out and no longer legit. Same mentality with people who rag on relics by trying to point some illegitimate poser finger at the owner, like the self-appointed authority on legitimacy and righteousness in the guitar-owning world. I buy the guitars I want, play them in my house to no one. I allude no pretense on the instrument, or myself because they are relic. And to whom? My wife? She knows I'm the relic and sees UPS bring guitars to the door, so there's no fooling her. But on an internet guitar forum? It's like a cat fight in a high school girl's locker room with the snooty girls looking down their noses at the others. Blood, sweat, and tears....gimmme a break. LOL.
    Vintage cars go for much more if they are in good shape. From aging humbucker pickups and "closet" scratches to kool aid stains and aged steel strings, when it comes to guitars, Fender's actions seem to imply there is a market for the second hand parts/recycled wood and they are capitalizing upon it. My disappointment is that now it is actually rare to find a top of the line Fender guitar that is other than a relic (or slightly).....or even "closet" which means faded spots and some scratches. Hard to figure out the finest, most detailed workmanship of the top Fender guitars when outside of a few signature models, they better ones appear to be all dented and "relicked." :-(

    Looking forward to the Nile Rodgers' Fender Strat....and hoping it's not a relic or anything other than brand new.

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    Shaunofthedeadologist Johnny the Kid's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    An old world luthier can't get the precision of a machine. I think that you've put too much faith into vintage instruments. In your eyes, the only great instruments are vintage ones. What about the Jackson Soloist? In my OPINION, it's one of the best guitars ever made. In your OPINION, it's a piece of ****. Second of all, you never offer any real reason why vintage instruments are better, only that they are and we should take your word for it. Well, I have yet to play a vintage instrument that I liked. I've played a few 64 Strats and a 61 SG and they were meh. They sounded good don't get me wrong, but they weren't the sound I look for in a guitar and that is something with a little more heft. My Hamer hollowbody that I got used missing half the paint on it's neck is better sounding, in my OPINION (I'm not sure I can stress that word enough).
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny the Kid View Post
    An old world luthier can't get the precision of a machine. I think that you've put too much faith into vintage instruments. In your eyes, the only great instruments are vintage ones. What about the Jackson Soloist? In my OPINION, it's one of the best guitars ever made. In your OPINION, it's a piece of ****. Second of all, you never offer any real reason why vintage instruments are better, only that they are and we should take your word for it. Well, I have yet to play a vintage instrument that I liked. I've played a few 64 Strats and a 61 SG and they were meh. They sounded good don't get me wrong, but they weren't the sound I look for in a guitar and that is something with a little more heft. My Hamer hollowbody that I got used missing half the paint on it's neck is better sounding, in my OPINION (I'm not sure I can stress that word enough).
    Dude your getting way too worked up take a deep breath and repeat after me "You cant argue with cheese" got it? ok
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    Li'l Junior Member MetalManiac's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    dude, Ive got a soliost. You didnt listen to what i said about classic vs. modern either. NO matter. Ill take the vintage guitars and you keep the moderns..deAL?
    "Anyone who understands Jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra

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    Li'l Junior Member MetalManiac's Avatar
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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgecrusher View Post
    Dude your getting way too worked up take a deep breath and repeat after me "You cant argue with cheese" got it? ok
    bWAHAHAHA .I could hang with this dude, honestly..maybe get my fyrst tat, who knows?
    "Anyone who understands Jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra

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    Default Re: do non musicians like "reliced" or just old guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalManiac View Post
    bWAHAHAHA .I could hang with this dude, honestly..maybe get my fyrst tat, who knows?
    I'd be down for that. We could do like a classic hula girl on your arm so when you flex you can make her dance.
    "It keeps you fit - the alcohol, nasty women, sweat on stage, bad food - it's all very good for you." -Bon Scott

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    you better than any girlfriend, because it screams louder, it's easier to pick up, and it shuts up when you take your plug out." -Rip Glitter

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