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Thread: 2019 Gibson Lineup

  1. #141
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by zionstrat View Post
    This is true, but let's be clear- it doesn't make PRS the fall guy for Gibson's problems-

    What PRS was saying was, there was room in the market for high quality, innovative electrics in the upper mid and boutique end of the spectrum and he was correct. Look at Suhr and Andersen in the same period- they had a good understanding of customer needs, and even more important, optimizing the value point = Customer Requirements at a price that the target market can afford.

    Gibson's problem is they thought that they could simply increase price without doing the analysis and they entirely leaned on brand power- as a result, their value points were way off base, and over time, practically every other manufacturer was able to undercut Gibson with better ability to meet user needs/quality and Gibson's brand has suffered.

    And that's ultimately why Gibson has a short window to get optimized- competitors from IBI, YAGS and Fender on the low end, Reverend & Godin in the middle, and PRS at the high end have significantly impacted Gibson's walletshare (the amount an individual spends with a given company), they have significantly displaced Gibson's mindshare (how much people think about a brand) and they have a lot more guitars on the wall.

    And that last one is incredible- It's amazing that Gibson didn't recognize that 'eating the seed corn' could not end well- when they priced dealers out, they left lots of wall space for everyone else and younger guitarists are far more likely to play Schetre, esp, IBI, Yags or Fender and people tend to buy the things they are familiar with (not to mention that have well optimized value points = great value for the cost).

    Bottom line, yeah PRS had tremendous competitive impact, but that's what they are supposed to do- Gibson was totally asleep at the wheel chasing Firebird X and robo tuners.

    The rest of the industry were happy to fill the gaps.
    There were no robo tuners and Firebird X around in the days when PRS first launched, and that is when the multi-hundred dollar price increases from Gibson started. It was a direct response to the then new PRS sky-high guitar prices, they were much more costly than anything on the market at that time, and Gibson obviously took PR Smith's comments as as a slap in the face to their company. I used to check out the new Gibsons every year in the Musician's Friend and similar catalogs, I noted each year pre-PRS that Gibson prices would creep up maybe $50 each year and I thought that was weird, when PRS started making an impact on their sales I suddenly saw annual $200 or so price increases in Gibson guitars. I could see it was in response to PRS and the fact they were getting ridiculous prices for guitars that were similar in quality (in Gibsons' eyes), and they greedily wanted their slice of that pie. In 1992 I could get an SG Standard for 700 bucks, LP's were only a little bit more. Just look how much those prices have escalated since then, it certainly isn't in line with inflation.
    I was only talking about one point, the annual massive price increases, and I hold PRS's entry into the market, making quality guitars but gouging as much out of the buyers as they could, directly responsible for those crazy Gibson price increases. It was evident if you watched the guitar market as closely as I did, and others also did. After that came the "Gibson" lifestyle crap, which was IMO their way to explain away their new pricing structure. The insane attempts at marketing bizarre guitars that nobody wanted came later.
    Whatever, I just wanted to make a point that I have believed for a long time. Those remarks from Paul Reed Smith were in an article, probably in Guitar Player Magazine (which I read constantly from the time I was a young guitar player), where a group of guitar makers discussed the guitar market at the time, and his remarks made me want to puke. Guitarists SHOULD(?) pay big bucks for electric guitars, what balls to make a statement like that, but it seems a lot of people ignored his intent to wring as much money out of them as possible and PRS was successful, which impacted the market in a bad way.
    Al
    Last edited by Zombiwoof; 09-15-2018 at 05:56 AM.

  2. #142
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtrjunior View Post
    I hear you...if these were at a more realistic (in my mind, anyway) price point I would have scooped one of these up the minute they were released. These guitars are HOT.
    Same. I like how it jabs at PRS releasing a Singlecut model that was essentially a Les Paul clone.
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  3. #143
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombiwoof View Post
    There were no robo tuners and Firebird X around in the days when PRS first launched, and that is when the multi-hundred dollar price increases from Gibson started. It was a direct response to the then new PRS sky-high guitar prices, they were much more costly than anything on the market at that time, and Gibson obviously took PR Smith's comments as as a slap in the face to their company. I used to check out the new Gibsons every year in the Musician's Friend and similar catalogs, I noted each year pre-PRS that Gibson prices would creep up maybe $50 each year and I thought that was weird, when PRS started making an impact on their sales I suddenly saw annual $200 or so price increases in Gibson guitars. I could see it was in response to PRS and the fact they were getting ridiculous prices for guitars that were similar in quality (in Gibsons' eyes), and they greedily wanted their slice of that pie. In 1992 I could get an SG Standard for 700 bucks, LP's were only a little bit more. Just look how much those prices have escalated since then, it certainly isn't in line with inflation.
    I was only talking about one point, the annual massive price increases, and I hold PRS's entry into the market, making quality guitars but gouging as much out of the buyers as they could, directly responsible for those crazy Gibson price increases. It was evident if you watched the guitar market as closely as I did, and others also did. After that came the "Gibson" lifestyle crap, which was IMO their way to explain away their new pricing structure. The insane attempts at marketing bizarre guitars that nobody wanted came later.
    Whatever, I just wanted to make a point that I have believed for a long time. Those remarks from Paul Reed Smith were in an article, probably in Guitar Player Magazine (which I read constantly from the time I was a young guitar player), where a group of guitar makers discussed the guitar market at the time, and his remarks made me want to puke. Guitarists SHOULD(?) pay big bucks for electric guitars, what balls to make a statement like that, but it seems a lot of people ignored his intent to wring as much money out of them as possible and PRS was successful, which impacted the market in a bad way.
    Al
    It still sounds to me like youíre trying to blame PRS for Gibsonís decisions. I didnít read the article youíre talking about, so itís possible that my context is off, but hereís what I see happening with the whole PRS/Gibson thing:

    Paul Reed Smith saw that there was a market for high end guitars that he could break into by providing beautiful finishes, attention to detail, and all-around high quality. He felt that he could ask a very high price for these features and that there were enough people who would buy them that he could make a nice profit doing it. This is capitalism 101... find a market, provide a product, and make money.

    Keep in mind that your PERSONAL opinions of value donít necessarily line up with the market. If there are enough people who think something is worth it, it will sell. You can be pissed at PR Smithís comments all you want, but the fact is that he was right and has been successful because of it. A comment like ďguitarists should pay moreĒ is the kind of comment that sets your brand a few notches above the others in the eyes of the market.

    Did Gibson try to jump on the bandwagon? Probably. But they obviously did a half-ass job of it. No matter the outcome, it was GIBSONíS decision to follow the PRS example. Nobody forced them to do it (except management of course). PRS did it and it worked. Gibson tried to copy and failed... itís just business and itís certainly not PRSí fault.

    If one doesnít like PRS or feels like their products are not worth their prices, donít buy one.

    If one doesnít like Gibson or feels like their products are not worth their prices, donít buy one.

    Itís a free, open market and there are lots of great guitars being made nowadays to choose from.
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    just a note for reference....GC is probably one of the biggest seller of electric guitars...here is what they say the 5 most poular are:

    https://www.guitarcenter.com/riffs/b...ectric-guitars

    funny, 3 Gibsons make the list...where are all these other guitars that are taking away Gibson's market share???

  5. #145
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombiwoof View Post
    I hold PRS's entry into the market, making quality guitars but gouging as much out of the buyers as they could, directly responsible for those crazy Gibson price increases...
    l
    Zombie, I agree that PRS and boutiques opened up a high end market. The market was willing to pay and it was sustainable, so its hard to understand why they wouldn't go there.

    Imho, PRS and others introduced, high quality and innovation, shaking up the industry, forcing tighter specs and bubbling down into the mid market. They increased competitive pressure which forces everyone to up their game.

    Considering all of my expensive guitars, the guitar thats gigging the most right now is a $900 Reverend and I believe that the high quality middle of the road cost is a result of competitive pressure.

    Reverend and many others watched as the value points were optimized on the high end and they realized they could increase value in the mid range, so they displaced Gibson sales in midrange just as PRS did on the high end.

    Meanwhile, Gibson did nothing but raise prices... They didn't add processes to better insure quality, they didn't add new features that customer's loved (PRS coil matching is a great ecample) and they didn't find ways to optimize costs (Reverend only uses korina wood).

    So I agree with you...Gibson believed they deserved to be the most expensive brand and pride caused them to run up the price... However, they ignored the competition accross all markets and the competition has displaced a lot of Gibson from the low end to the high end....

    Thanks for a good thread and pulling for new management to open their eyes and get Gibson competitive...

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  6. #146
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Briguy... Our posts crossed in time and you were far more articulate!

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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by justFred View Post
    just a note for reference....GC is probably one of the biggest seller of electric guitars...here is what they say the 5 most poular are:

    https://www.guitarcenter.com/riffs/b...ectric-guitars

    funny, 3 Gibsons make the list...where are all these other guitars that are taking away Gibson's market share???
    That is most popular design. It doesn't mention what models and brands have particularly sold the best. Everytime I go into GC, there is quite a good chance that I will see some sort of transaction involving some sort of Les Paul.
    Once I had myself a million, now I've only got a dime.
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  8. #148
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by zionstrat View Post
    Briguy... Our posts crossed in time and you were far more articulate!

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
    Lol... I was just about to say the same thing to you!
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chistopher View Post
    That is most popular design. It doesn't mention what models and brands have particularly sold the best. Everytime I go into GC, there is quite a good chance that I will see some sort of transaction involving some sort of Les Paul.
    Yup. it would be interesting to see their actual top 5 SKUs... regardless of price or style.
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Securb View Post
    I am in love with the Modern Double Cut but $4900 is way too rich for my blood.


    That's a cool guitar, but if they're going 'modern', why not a 13-degree peghead with straight string pull?

    I'd be more interested in that, but ~$3500 street is a bit steep when I can get a PRS for about the same price with far better QC.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusty philtrum View Post
    And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by justFred View Post
    just a note for reference....GC is probably one of the biggest seller of electric guitars...here is what they say the 5 most poular are:

    https://www.guitarcenter.com/riffs/b...ectric-guitars

    funny, 3 Gibsons make the list...where are all these other guitars that are taking away Gibson's market share???
    JustFred,
    You've opened a very interesting door- if you count all models, by unit, for all time, the Telecaster, Stratocaster, LP and especially SG are certainly the top 4- in the 50s, 60s and 70s when these models were ramping up, Gibson and Fender owned nearly 70% of the market. The other 30% was split between Ric, Gretsh, Hoffner, etc… Small brands with small outputs.

    Now move to 80s,90, 00s and add in Yamaha, Ibanez, PRS, the boutiques and mid range like Godin and Reverend. Total Yamaha sales are more than 10 times that of competitors, Fender is about 3 times more… Big brands with big outputs.

    Of course the Yamahas and Ibanez and PRS and Reverends and Rics, etc are so diverse that no single model is likely to catch up with the classics by unit sales in the short term.

    But we’re talking apples and oranges- That’s why Gibson will continue to claim the SG as the most popular electric of all time-

    But by revenue and unit count, Gibson’s market share has dramatically decreased, that’s where profit comes from and one of the reasons that Gibson has so much work to do if they want to stay in the game.
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Securb View Post
    I am in love with the Modern Double Cut but $4900 is way too rich for my blood.



    Dear gawd.... THAT ugly thing with its pale-azz fretboard and crud finish is not JUST 4 digits, but actually halfway to 5 digits???

    If somebody told me it was $799, I'd be like "huh good luck". But that's just appaling

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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    "But by revenue and unit count, Gibson’s market share has dramatically decreased, that’s where profit comes from and one of the reasons that Gibson has so much work to do if they want to stay in the game"

    you are operating under the assumption that Gibson guitar business plan objective is to increase revenues across the total market...that does not seem like a realistic objective...Gibson seems to be focusing on a segment of that total market and are saying that they are growing in that segment in revenue as well as profitability...that is good business...know who you are, who your customers are and put your focus there...
    could they be doing a better job at it...ABSOLUTELY...is Gibson guitar business segment a train wreck...ABSOLUTELY NOT...

  14. #154
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg1911 View Post
    They didn't make an ES 335 faded "sub model". If you saw a minty ES 335 Studio for $600, you should have bought it and flipped it ...

    Lester not 335


    Looked like a 90s or early 2000's model, but didnt look too close

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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
    That's nice old man. And the facts of the market is there isn't anyone under 30 that feels that way.

    See, when you actually have 60 years of being the most sought after high end guitars, that would make sense. They really had more like 35....They certainly haven't been that since maybe Use Your Illusion or so....
    Yeah, true

    Back when I was i high school, we shot the kid with the Marshall stack and the Gibson SG dirty looks of envy, and sat on a bench fantaizing about what we wanted to get

    Ran into one of those broke-azz envying kids like 15 years later, dropped by for a beer and to catch up -- he's got a marshall and a gibson in his living room. But he was never a gearhead, he just got what he wanted as a kid once he could afford it.

    Me? I bought the Gibsons and was like "naaah" and flipped em.

    And that's about where that cutoff occurred.

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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Having an MSRP of $4900 for the Gibson Modern Double Cut is akin to having a little Henry J. following you around... t-bagging you over and over while cackling out loud after you purchase it.

    I'm all for profit and such but there is a line... that price point is an intentional slap in the customer's face.
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  17. #157
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Adieu View Post
    Dear gawd.... THAT ugly thing with its pale-azz fretboard and crud finish is not JUST 4 digits, but actually halfway to 5 digits???

    If somebody told me it was $799, I'd be like "huh good luck". But that's just appaling
    You ever play one, or is this hatred based off mere speculation and aesthetics?
    Once I had myself a million, now I've only got a dime.
    Difference don't seem quite as bad today.
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  18. #158
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by justFred View Post

    you are operating under the assumption that Gibson guitar business plan objective is to increase revenues across the total market...
    Nope- simply pointing out that Gibson has lost significant marketshare, it is likely to lose more if they don't change, and if it continues, there is a point where the value of the brand will exceed revenue. That's when an Asian sale is most likely and that's not good for the market.

    Don't know if you've had a chance to read the series, but we have explored many options where Gibson could trade off market size for quality and continue to grow. Options include:

    1. Sell Epi and focus on boutique- Otherwise they need to ramp up processes knowledge if they want to remain profitable with mass production- Of course, they would have to provide extremely high quality, but it is possible they could grow as boutique only.

    2. Sell Epi and focus mainly on acoustics with electrics as a 2ndary market- A variation on #1, acoustics are a strong market and Gibson's reputation and mindshare have remained strong. And if they provide a small number of high quality electrics, high demand +low quantity could support high price points.

    3. Revamp processes across mass production and run high end as a high quality boutique- This would have been the perfect option 10 years ago and it is still possible. But it would take a lot of work to optimize both businesses and they haven't shown the vision/change management necessary up to this point. Again, all could change if strong leadership shows up soon.

    The only scenario that doesn't make sense is withdrawing to the mass production side- they don't have the process knowledge and they need to retain brand value.
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  19. #159
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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    My point is simply...there is no objective evidence that Gibson guitar segment is in trouble from an ongoing business perspective...the expansion into other businesses is the problem.

    Separate subject...Gibson's only significant competition is Fender...Will the evolving guitarist choose SG/Les Paul or Tele/Strat...when he/she reaches the level of wanting a professional grade instrument the price range for both companies is between 1200 and 3500...
    That is very little money relatively speaking....gaming computers, entertainment centers, automobile options, etc go for more than that...

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    Default Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by zionstrat View Post
    Nope- simply pointing out that Gibson has lost significant marketshare, it is likely to lose more if they don't change, and if it continues, there is a point where the value of the brand will exceed revenue. That's when an Asian sale is most likely and that's not good for the market.

    Don't know if you've had a chance to read the series, but we have explored many options where Gibson could trade off market size for quality and continue to grow. Options include:

    1. Sell Epi and focus on boutique- Otherwise they need to ramp up processes knowledge if they want to remain profitable with mass production- Of course, they would have to provide extremely high quality, but it is possible they could grow as boutique only.

    2. Sell Epi and focus mainly on acoustics with electrics as a 2ndary market- A variation on #1, acoustics are a strong market and Gibson's reputation and mindshare have remained strong. And if they provide a small number of high quality electrics, high demand +low quantity could support high price points.

    3. Revamp processes across mass production and run high end as a high quality boutique- This would have been the perfect option 10 years ago and it is still possible. But it would take a lot of work to optimize both businesses and they haven't shown the vision/change management necessary up to this point. Again, all could change if strong leadership shows up soon.

    The only scenario that doesn't make sense is withdrawing to the mass production side- they don't have the process knowledge and they need to retain brand value.
    Isnít Epi a money maker and they know what they are doing? Why sell? Wouldnít they leave a massive space open if they go just boutique?

    Couldnít they bite the bullet and leverage the brand on some top of the line overseas guitars? Like branding Gibson with the quality of the Epi Elitist line. It feels like that is working for Fender, the brand stayed strong.

    Iím not saying they shouldnít go boutique in the US but it feels that the $1k-2k market is theirs to own.

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