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Thread: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

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    Ultimate Tone Member audiocheck's Avatar
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    Default Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    So I bought my Carvin X-100b new in 1984. At the time, NOTHING I had played through was anything like this amp. I messed with Boogies, Fenders and Marshalls in rehearsal studios and I owned Peavey & Music Man prior to my Carvin purchase. I have also read that Marshall had to resort to Clipping Diodes in their first couple of High Gain type amplifiers. Even Boogie's Gain stacking design seemed nothing like what Carvin came up with for the X-100b. With the X-100b's Active tone control and mud cutting "hot rod circuit", it seems that IT was the first true high gain metal amp!! Yes or No?

    I also own a Carvin V3m, which allowed me to semi-retire the X100b and allowed me a more portable option. Had I known they where going to go out of business, I would have also grabbed a full size V3 and a VT16.

    Now with Carvin gone, I have to turn my sights somewhere else. I have my sights on finally owning a boogie, particularly a Mark V25 and a TC100. Boogie doesn't release their current model's schematics, making it hard for me to confirm some elements in amp design that I have grown accustom to. I typically do not use pedals and if I do, it's a Wah. So I need to get all my tone and gain from the amp.

    So main question: Do the Mark V25 and TC100 have Negative Feedback Loops? I read some Boogie's have a switch that adds and subtracts it from the circuit depending on channel characteristic switch. So what's going on in these two models?

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    Mojo's Minions Lake Placid Blues's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    I'm sure they have negative feedback loops. An amp without any negative feedback sounds and feels rather rubbery.

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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Lake Placid Blues View Post
    I'm sure they have negative feedback loops. An amp without any negative feedback sounds and feels rather rubbery.
    Eh? Dual Rectos have no negative feedback in "Modern" mode, and I've never noticed them feeling "rubbery" (although I'm not quite sure what that means).

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    Her Little Mojo Minion DankStar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Why do you have to turn your sights somewhere else? Plenty of carvins used out there.

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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by DankStar View Post
    Why do you have to turn your sights somewhere else? Plenty of carvins used out there.
    But not that many Hot Rod Mod Series A or B EL 34 heads out there. Owned a 100 watter and own a X50B Hot Rod mod head now. They are truly special amps!!
    This was my X100B Hot Rod mod cranked at Church on a 4/12 Soldano Yamaha cab with 75 no effects at all songs were back to back same night. listen to the compression and note bloom here and the way it breaks into feedback at times. Very much like a Fisher Trainwreck in the way it responds.
    https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/...songID=4453782
    https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/...songID=5049360
    Last edited by Ascension; 02-11-2019 at 09:48 PM.
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    Her Little Mojo Minion DankStar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    But not that many Hot Rod Mod EL 34 head out there. owned a 100 ND own a X50B Hot Rod mod head now. They are truly special amps!!
    This was my X100B Hot Rod mod cranked at Church on a 4/12 Soldano Yamaha cab with 75 no effects at all. listen to the compression and note bloom here and the way it breaks into feedback at times. Very much like a Fisher Trainwreck in the way it responds.
    https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/...songID=4453782
    oh I see. I think mine was a 6L6 - it was super loud with great cleans.

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    Ultimate Tone Member audiocheck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    But not that many Hot Rod Mod Series A or B EL 34 heads out there. Owned a 100 watter and own a X50B Hot Rod mod head now. They are truly special amps!!
    This was my X100B Hot Rod mod cranked at Church on a 4/12 Soldano Yamaha cab with 75 no effects at all songs were back to back same night. listen to the compression and note bloom here and the way it breaks into feedback at times. Very much like a Fisher Trainwreck in the way it responds.
    https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/...songID=4453782
    https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/...songID=5049360
    Mine is a 6L6 only model. Amazing amp!! There are a lot on the used market, but you can't be sure they haven't been dicked with. Lots of people bought them thinking they would sound like a Marshall and they don't. They have their own voice and it takes time to dial in what you wan't from it. The V3m was worse in that regard. So many great tones to be had, it's so hard to choose and stick to one setting with the V3m. The bad side is, the unhappy buyers modified them.

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    Ultimate Tone Member audiocheck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by DankStar View Post
    Why do you have to turn your sights somewhere else? Plenty of carvins used out there.
    I was looking for a lower wattage head, right when they went out of business. I was going to pull the trigger on a Vt16 and they never restocked them before going out. So, I always wanted a Boogie, but never cared for the ones I played through. A year or so ago, I got to try a Mark V25. It was great and I think what make it great was the fact it didn't have to be too loud. Most Boogies have to be too loud to get what I want from them, this was a great change of pace. For a Micro Head, its loaded with features, more than the V3m. The other thing about past boogies have been the response. I think that's the non-negative feedback thing. I think some setting on the Mark 5 have negative feedback.

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    Mojo's Minions Ascension's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Try the PRS MT-15. 15 watts but runs a pair of 6L6's at low grid voltage, the EVH brown sound concept. GREAT cleans and a very responsive crunch + at $650 the price is right. They are a MIC amp but are super quiet and very well built. IMO they are among the very best of the lunchbox amps and by far the best under a grand.
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    Tone Member oneblackened's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by audiocheck View Post
    So I bought my Carvin X-100b new in 1984. At the time, NOTHING I had played through was anything like this amp. I messed with Boogies, Fenders and Marshalls in rehearsal studios and I owned Peavey & Music Man prior to my Carvin purchase. I have also read that Marshall had to resort to Clipping Diodes in their first couple of High Gain type amplifiers. Even Boogie's Gain stacking design seemed nothing like what Carvin came up with for the X-100b. With the X-100b's Active tone control and mud cutting "hot rod circuit", it seems that IT was the first true high gain metal amp!! Yes or No?

    I also own a Carvin V3m, which allowed me to semi-retire the X100b and allowed me a more portable option. Had I known they where going to go out of business, I would have also grabbed a full size V3 and a VT16.

    Now with Carvin gone, I have to turn my sights somewhere else. I have my sights on finally owning a boogie, particularly a Mark V25 and a TC100. Boogie doesn't release their current model's schematics, making it hard for me to confirm some elements in amp design that I have grown accustom to. I typically do not use pedals and if I do, it's a Wah. So I need to get all my tone and gain from the amp.

    So main question: Do the Mark V25 and TC100 have Negative Feedback Loops? I read some Boogie's have a switch that adds and subtracts it from the circuit depending on channel characteristic switch. So what's going on in these two models?
    Yes, they do. Rectifiers have NFB disconnected in Modern mode, and that's why "modern mode" is both enormously louder than Vintage or Raw, and also a wall of fizz and enormous (if somewhat woofy) low end.
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by oneblackened View Post
    Yes, they do. Rectifiers have NFB disconnected in Modern mode, and that's why "modern mode" is both enormously louder than Vintage or Raw, and also a wall of fizz and enormous (if somewhat woofy) low end.
    Ugh!!!, that's why I never bonded with any Rectifiers I have plugged into. I always went right to Modern setting, thinking it would be like my Carvin. Any idea on the Mark V's or Triple Crowns?

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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    Try the PRS MT-15. 15 watts but runs a pair of 6L6's at low grid voltage, the EVH brown sound concept. GREAT cleans and a very responsive crunch + at $650 the price is right. They are a MIC amp but are super quiet and very well built. IMO they are among the very best of the lunchbox amps and by far the best under a grand.


    okay, I will.

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    Ultimate Tone Member audiocheck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    okay I got my answers, thanks for the input from everyone.

    Mark V: has Negative Feedback loop in all settings, except Extreme
    TC100: non-negative feedback loop (uses the type of presence control that the KingSnake uses in Blackface mode)



    Excerpt from the KingSnake manual:

    BLACKFACE is a roll-off type control located at the end of the preamp and produces a warmer, more compressed character that rounds out single notes, giving them more envelope and “pop” on their attack and smoothness on their decay. The power section does not have an adjustable point in this PRESENCE scheme and instead uses a fixed set of parts to tune that location in the circuit. This is Carlos Santana’s favorite setting and the same PRESENCE circuit used on his original MARK I Snakeskin. This Mode shines for Clean sounds that are vintage in nature with a round attack and a bloom in the low end. It’s got more “juice and forgiveness” in comparison to TWEED and you can “dig-in” more for expressive passages without ever sounding harsh or brittle.

    BLACKFACE also excels at vocal single note work regardless of how much overdrive is dialed in. It has a smoother, more “envelope- y” attack and the natural compression here is perfect for memorable melodies with a wide signature in any gain range or Input choice. Make sure you audition the Input 2 response with the VOLUME 2 cranked-up high and the PRESENCE between 11:00–3:00 for soulful Blues Lead work. Magic awaits!
    TO SUM IT UP, BLACKFACE offers reduced brightness and more natural compression while still maintaining detailed resolution over a wide range of lower frequencies.

    TWEED is a true “power section PRESENCE” that works on negative feedback in a selected range of frequencies. Sonically it brings the KING SNAKE’s response forward and features lightning fast attack, substantially more top end (higher up) and tightens the low end, allowing it to track better, especially during complex rhythmic passages. TWEED showcases upper layers of harmonics and adds the grind and shred needed for more modern aggressive gain sounds.
    TWEED excels for Clean sounds as well, and offers flavors that have more cut and slice than BLACKFACE. It’s perfect when you need to define the guitar in a complex mix. Watch the TREBLE here though, as TWEED is rich with harmonics and instantaneous in its delivery of the attack when compared to BLACKFACE.This can be dangerous when combined with high settings of the PRESENCE.
    There is a nice “threshold-zone” at the lower end of the PRESENCE control in TWEED that works well for single note overdriven sounds. Somewhere between 9.00–11.00 (depending on the rest of your settings), there is a point where the sound transitions from dark and more compressed to open and brighter. In this zone there are many subtle shades of attack and envelope characteristics and spending some time exploring here should reward your search for solo sounds. Much above 1:00–1:30 on the PRESENCE in TWEED Mode and the top end really starts getting forward.You may want to reserve this region for heavily overdriven chording or crunch sounds where the ample layers of harmonics are style-appropriate.

    TO SUM IT UP, TWEED provides increased attack and urgency while offering greater resolution across an unrestricted region of harmonic cut and brightness. It provides control over almost two octaves of harmonics above those present in the BLACKFACE PRESENCE Mode.
    This switchable re-mapping of both circuit and sound regarding PRESENCE allows you to command a split personality in the KING
    SNAKE and excel at both true vintage and more modern styles with this one amp. Set for clean or high gain, it pays even further tribute to its 6o0 riginal role as a link between the amps of yesteryear and the high gain footswitching amps of the modern era.
    [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

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    Tone Member oneblackened's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    The TC100 almost definitely has NFB. The vast majority of amps do - with very few exceptions, like a Rectifier in Modern mode.
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by oneblackened View Post
    The TC100 almost definitely has NFB. The vast majority of amps do - with very few exceptions, like a Rectifier in Modern mode.
    It's actually a tough call; I can't find any definitive source, but after reading the manual, I lean a bit towards "it doesn't". The manual specifically mentions that the "Presence" control is actually a Recto-style "end of the tonestack, still in the pre-amp, treble-dump", rather than attenuating the fedback treble, which would be an odd thing to do if you had an NFB to work with. Furthermore, the manual claims that it's the highest gain amp they've ever made, with even more gain available than a Recto on Modern, and you're not getting that without pounding the ever-living crap out of the PI (the entire reason the Recto takes the NFB out on Modern is so you can drive the PI harder; this is a Mesa favorite trick). It's possible they're doing some sort of trickery with a non-linear frequency response in their NFB that would get ruined with traditional power-section controls (the Uberschall is an example of this), but it seems unlikely to me.

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    Raging BB Gunologist some_dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical View Post
    It's actually a tough call; I can't find any definitive source, but after reading the manual, I lean a bit towards "it doesn't". The manual specifically mentions that the "Presence" control is actually a Recto-style "end of the tonestack, still in the pre-amp, treble-dump", rather than attenuating the fedback treble, which would be an odd thing to do if you had an NFB to work with. Furthermore, the manual claims that it's the highest gain amp they've ever made, with even more gain available than a Recto on Modern, and you're not getting that without pounding the ever-living crap out of the PI (the entire reason the Recto takes the NFB out on Modern is so you can drive the PI harder; this is a Mesa favorite trick). It's possible they're doing some sort of trickery with a non-linear frequency response in their NFB that would get ruined with traditional power-section controls (the Uberschall is an example of this), but it seems unlikely to me.
    Mesa said the same thing with regard to the Stiletto, which the Triple Crown is an evolution of.

    The Stiletto bypassed the NFB to the clean channel/modes to loosen things up so they weren’t so sterile. The higher gain channel/modes still have a NFB with a fixed power amp presence setting while the actual presence control attenuated treble within the preamp.

    So, while I can’t say definitively that the TC has a NFB, I feel it’s a fairly safe bet that it does.
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    Ultimate Tone Member audiocheck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical View Post
    It's actually a tough call; I can't find any definitive source, but after reading the manual, I lean a bit towards "it doesn't". The manual specifically mentions that the "Presence" control is actually a Recto-style "end of the tonestack, still in the pre-amp, treble-dump", rather than attenuating the fedback treble, which would be an odd thing to do if you had an NFB to work with. Furthermore, the manual claims that it's the highest gain amp they've ever made, with even more gain available than a Recto on Modern, and you're not getting that without pounding the ever-living crap out of the PI (the entire reason the Recto takes the NFB out on Modern is so you can drive the PI harder; this is a Mesa favorite trick). It's possible they're doing some sort of trickery with a non-linear frequency response in their NFB that would get ruined with traditional power-section controls (the Uberschall is an example of this), but it seems unlikely to me.

    Further research shows in Both the Mark V and Rectos' Extreme setting is a reduced Voltage NFB loop. So it still has a NFB loop, but it is extremely relaxed in what it does.

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    Ultimate Tone Member audiocheck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by some_dude View Post
    Mesa said the same thing with regard to the Stiletto, which the Triple Crown is an evolution of.

    The Stiletto bypassed the NFB to the clean channel/modes to loosen things up so they weren’t so sterile. The higher gain channel/modes still have a NFB with a fixed power amp presence setting while the actual presence control attenuated treble within the preamp.

    So, while I can’t say definitively that the TC has a NFB, I feel it’s a fairly safe bet that it does.
    Yep from what I can tell from the manuals, the Stiletto has no NFB loop. So yes it evolved into the Triple Crown series.

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    Ultimate Tone Member audiocheck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by oneblackened View Post
    The TC100 almost definitely has NFB. The vast majority of amps do - with very few exceptions, like a Rectifier in Modern mode.
    Nope. Randall Smith uses many electronic variations to get his amps to sound and feel different. This is the only amp company I have seen that constantly evolves their models. With each amp Mr Smith learns more and incorporates that into new models. I wish the KingSnake Blackface/Tweed switch could be on the TC100, but I bet it would have to be a global thing. Smith has been messing with how amps feel from the very start. People like Santana don't want the NFB, while others do. His Simul-Class, Pentode & Triode use and Tweed switch on Mark I amps (which lowers the Voltage across the circuit), all have been used to make the amps vary the feel between spongy & tight.

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    Default Re: Since Carvin is Out of Business, High gain history? and Boogie Question

    Quote Originally Posted by audiocheck View Post
    Yep from what I can tell from the manuals, the Stiletto has no NFB loop. So yes it evolved into the Triple Crown series.
    That’s not what I said at all. You should probably re-read the manual.
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