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Thread: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

  1. #21
    Lewguitar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by the_Chris
    Hey Lew, I've got a '70 SF Vibrolux Reverb that needs some killer speakers, I like the description of the Weber A125 (I assume according to your post that they used to be called the P10Qs). I'm not sure what exactly the VR is rated for (the piece of paper on the inside of the amp is incorrect), what wattage speakers would you recommend? Also, would you recommend mixing speaker types or just sticking with one kind in both positions?

    Thanks a lot Lew, I know you know Fenders very well and this is definitely vault-worthy material.
    I'd go with either the 30 watt Weber P10Q or the Weber C10Q or a mix of the two. In blackface or silverface Fenders I think the 30 watt version of the Weber P10Q is a better choice. Better, tighter lows and smoother highs.

    The alnico 30 watt P10Q will have a pluckier and more vowel-like tone than the ceramic C10Q but the C10Q will have clearer and tighter bass. A mix of the two would give you the best of both worlds, but if you wanted maximum headroom and clarity I'd go for a pair of the C10Q's.

    Lew

  2. #22
    Ultimate Tone Member jmv's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewguitar
    Are they original Jensen C12N's from the 60's? Those are some sweet speakers if they are...used to be Eric Clapton's favorite speakers in the early 70's. The original Jensen C10N and C12N were the top of Jensen's line. I've come to appreciate the Celestion G12H30 over the Vintage 30 and of the two I think the G12H30 would have a tone more similar to the C12N. But the G12H30 would be louder, and more "Marshally" sounding than the C12N. The Jensen Reissue C12N is made in Italy and sounds pretty good and similar to the original C12N but not exactly the same. Those original C12N's are pretty sturdy speakers...I'd just enjoy it and be careful with it. Mine are still in great shape and I've pushed them pretty hard over the years.

    If you ever need to get your original C12N reconed Ted Weber can do a nice job. Because the cone on the original Jensens is now 40 years old or so it has softened considerably. To retain that vintage tone I had Ted recone mine with a softer cone...the cone he uses for his version of the C12Q. Sounds excellant and when I compare my old C12N's with the original cones to my C12N that Ted reconed with his "Q" cone they sound very close.

    So I think I'd recommend just enjoying your originals and when or if they ever need reconing just have Ted recone them with his C12Q cone.
    yes they are original jensen C12Ns from the 60s... and thanks very much for the info and suggestions!!
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  3. #23
    Ultimate Tone Slacker Sune's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Sune
    What cab and speakers would you smart guys recommend for a Peavey 5150 head?
    Can any of you tone masters answer this??

  4. #24
    Lewguitar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    As for the 5150, it's all just personal preference. If it was me I'd naturally try my favorites Celestions:

    G12H30: loud and efficient with deep bass, thick mids, smoother treble.

    Vintage 30: loud, efficient and clearer, with less bass but still plenty of bass, especially in a closed back 4 x 12, strong mids but less mids than the G12H30, more presence to the treble.

    or: Classic 80 for a tone that to my ears is just a touch less British and a touch more U.S.A....but still very Marshally.
    Last edited by Lewguitar; 09-17-2005 at 11:41 AM.

  5. #25
    LoveMachineologist jeremy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    hey lew, great post!!

    i love my fender 2x12 with the g12h-30/v30 combo and agree whole heartedly with your opinions on them.

    so my question to you is this:

    im thinking about selling my bassman ltd to get a tweed super kit from bruce. id like to be able to run the amp at 8 ohms with the two internal speakers and 4 ohms with a cab. i was thinking of putting a weber 10A125O with a 10A150 in there. any thoughts?

  6. #26
    Lewguitar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Hi Jeremy, I know what Bruce likes in there and it's the same two I recommended: Ted's C10Q/10F125 and P10RT/10A100T.

    The 10A150 would be an alnico 10 with a 1.5" voice coil. To be honest, I think a 1" or 1.25" voice coil sounds better in a tweed amp because the smaller voice coil has more highs. Ted's 1.5" voice coil 10" speakers seem to have very smooth mellow highs and I like a 10" with a little more cut to it.

    That's why I like his C10Q/10F125 better than his C10N/10F150.

    They both have the same huge magnet, but the 1.25" voice coil 10F125 is just a little brighter than the 1.5" voice coil 10F150.

    In a blackface Fender the larger voice coil works better because those amps seem to have more treble and less mids than most of the old Fender tweeds.

    Lew

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    Mojo's Minions Quencho092's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    wow, so a 30 watt rated speaker will keep its clean better than a 100 watt C12K? Whoa. I believe you, though.

    Would a vintage 30 sound too harsh in a DRRI? I prefer more of an open, 'breathable' amp tone capable of plenty of highs and mids rather than a darker, compressed, semi distorted speaker tone. How do these Celestions stack up against Weber's C12N copies? I was thinking of the 12F150T, it's only 95 bucks!
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewguitar
    Fender 5E3 tweed Deluxe: Celestion G12 Alnico Blue

    Fender 5F4 tweed Super: 1 Weber P10RT/10A100T & 1 Weber C10Q/10F125...but if you're going to play really loud you might want to go with the P10Q/10A125 because it can handle the abuse. But I like the tone of the P10RT better...especially in the wide panel/lower output versions of the tweed Super that I own.

    Fender 5F6-A tweed Bassman: Weber P10RT/10A100T or Weber P10Q/10A125

    Fender Deluxe Reverb: Celestion G12H30 (or Vintage 30)

    Fender Vibrolux-Reverb: Weber P10Q 30 watt/10A125 or C10Q/10F125

    Fender Super-Reverb: Weber P10Q/10A125...I like the 30 watt version better than the 20 watt version: smoother highs. I also love the Weber C10Q/10F125 but the Super Reverb is a heavy amp already and the Weber C10Q will make it REALLY HEAVY. The Weber C10Q does sound killer in a Super Reverb though.

    Vox AC-30: Celestion G12 Alnico Blues

    Most other 2 x 12 combo amps: 1 Celestion G12H30 & 1 Vintage 30

    If you're replacing the Jensen Reissue P10R's and want an alnico 10 with plucky mids, early break-up and smooth treble, go for the Weber P10R/10A100 with the smooth cone...it's alot like the Jensen P10R used in the early 50's. But if you want one with more highs and more like the late 50's version used in the original 59 Bassman go for the ribbed cone Weber P10RT/10A100T...that's the one I use.

    If you're replacing speakers in a tweed Fender Super, I like mixing the Weber P10RT/10A100T with the Weber C10Q/10F125. The P10RT gets the tweed tone and early break-up and the C10Q/10F125 makes the bass response more solid and clean and adds some nice solid mids too. I like the two speakers combined.

    Generally, I think ceramic magnet speakers have tighter/clearer bass and alnico magnet speakers break up a little more easily and have a pluckier tone. I like to mix ceramic 10's with alnico 10's in some amps to get the best qualities of both.

    If your amp has two 10" alnico speakers and you're finding the bass response to be a little muddy or loose try replacing just one of those alnico 10's with a ceramic magnet Weber C10Q/10F125. It'll make a nice improvement.

    Celestion makes my very favorite 12" speakers and those are the ceramic magnet G12H30 and Vintage 30 and the alnico magnet G12.

    The Celestion G12H30 has smoother highs and more bass than the brighter sounding Vintage 30. Replacing a generic 12" speaker with either will usually make a HUGE improvement in the volume, clarity and overall tone of just about any amp...especially an amp like a Fender Deluxe Reverb.

    Ted Weber makes my favorite 10" speakers. I think Ted's C10Q/10F125 is closer in tone to my favorite old Jensen 10, the '66 Jensen C10N, than what Ted regards as his version of the C10N: the Weber 10F150.

    Ted's version of the '66 Jensen C10N, the Weber 10F150 does have great bass response, but the highs are not as crisp as those in my original Jensen '66 C10N. I think Ted's C10Q/10F125 actually sounds closer to the tone of my old '66 C10N's.

    I've never liked the orginal 60's Jensen C10Q's...the magnet is to small. Ted's version, the C10Q/10F125 has the same huge magnet he uses on his version of the C10N and sounds much better than the orginals or the Jensen Reissue of the C10Q.

    Regarding the Jensen Reissue speakers, I like the P10R. I think it's a great value and four of them sound killer in a Bassman Reissue or similar amp. But the Weber P10RT/10A100T is even better.

    I find the reissue C10Q from Jensen to be a little to bright for my tastes but it's an excellant value and it'll smooth out after it's played in. However, I much prefer Ted's C10Q/10F125 and find it to be a stronger, richer, deeper, better sounding speaker.

    I don't have alot of experience with 15's...

    Lew
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  9. #29
    Senior Member SIXX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Hey Lew, how about speakers for a 4X12 slant cabinet for 80s & 90s METAL. G12T-75s, Vin30s. Classic Lead 80s or a mix of ?

  10. #30
    Tone Member hellatone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    I can also report favorably on the Avatar version of the G12H30 -- I put it in my classic 30 and it was significant improvement - I like it better than the Eminence Legend I had in there before, which was alnico - the Legend wasn't bad, but it turned out to be not what I wanted, which was a smoother, more blues-rockier tone.

  11. #31
    PRSlustologist Luke Duke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Fantastic thread Lew, you've done it again! Now I will shoot out my question. I'm thinking about having the good Dr. Z make me a 1X12 extension cab for my Maz Jr 2X10, I have a gut feeling that a mix of 10's and a 12 would be wonderful. On his site he only talks about openbacks, but I told him I was looking for a closed back and he didn't act like it was a problem.

    What speakers would you recommend for such an application. Thus far I've been very impressed with Z's Weber/Celestion Hybrid 10's.

    Luke
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  12. #32
    Mojo's Minions Bludave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Hey Lew..... Any thoughts on putting a 15" speaker in a Deluxe Reverb? My understanding is it will be difficult to get it to break up with a 15" Have you ever tried this? If so what speaker would you consider?
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  13. #33
    Lewguitar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Quencho092
    wow, so a 30 watt rated speaker will keep its clean better than a 100 watt C12K? Whoa. I believe you, though.
    Who said that? I've never heard of a C12K. The top of the Jensen line was the C12N...never seen a C12K. Just C12N, C12P, C12Q, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quencho092
    Would a vintage 30 sound too harsh in a DRRI? I prefer more of an open, 'breathable' amp tone capable of plenty of highs and mids rather than a darker, compressed, semi distorted speaker tone. How do these Celestions stack up against Weber's C12N copies? I was thinking of the 12F150T, it's only 95 bucks!
    I like the Vintage 30 in a DR...alot! IMO, the Vintage 30 will give a DR a little louder, brighter and clearer tone than the G12H30. But I prefer the G12H30...it has more bass and a fuller tone with smoother treble than the Vintage 30 in a DR. But the Vintage 30 has the clearer mids with more space or breath to the mids. You might prefer it.

    The G12H30 and Vintage 30 will blow away the reissue made in Italy Jensen C12N, IMO. The Celestions will be louder and clearer and ballsier too....the RI C12N is a nice sounding speaker but buttery sounding and the lows are not as tight and clear as either of the two Celestions.

    Lew

  14. #34
    Lewguitar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Bludave
    Hey Lew..... Any thoughts on putting a 15" speaker in a Deluxe Reverb? My understanding is it will be difficult to get it to break up with a 15" Have you ever tried this? If so what speaker would you consider?
    Never have done that. I've thought about putting a pair of 10's in my DR though. They'll fit but I'd need to make a new speaker board. I'd also have to get the 10's as 16 ohm speakers since when they're connected in parallel I'd have the 8 ohm load the DR wants to see. Years ago I used to play through 15's and back in those days I liked to sit my Twin Reverb amp on top of a Fender Dual Showman botten with either two of the JBL D-130 or the Electro-Voice SRO 15" speakers...but that was in the early 70's. I've used only 10's and 12's for the last 30 or 35 years.

    Lew

  15. #35
    Lewguitar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Duke
    Fantastic thread Lew, you've done it again! Now I will shoot out my question. I'm thinking about having the good Dr. Z make me a 1X12 extension cab for my Maz Jr 2X10, I have a gut feeling that a mix of 10's and a 12 would be wonderful. On his site he only talks about openbacks, but I told him I was looking for a closed back and he didn't act like it was a problem.

    What speakers would you recommend for such an application. Thus far I've been very impressed with Z's Weber/Celestion Hybrid 10's.

    Luke
    Thanks! Well...I like Celestion 12's and Weber 10's. Are you thinking of combining two 10's with one 12? You'll need to make a decision there about impedence. If all three speakers are 8 ohm you'll have a 2.66 ohm resistance when all three are combined. If you have two 8 ohm 10" speakers (16 ohms combined in series) and then you combined them with a 16 ohm 12, the overall resistance would be 8 ohms...the amp might like that better if it has an 8 ohm out. Or if the amp wants to see a 4 ohm load, you could achieve that with two 16 ohm 10" speakers (8 ohms if combined in parallel) and one 8 ohm 12. Is the speaker impedence switchable at the amp?

    If it was me, I'd want to be able to set the impedence at the amp to match the speakers in the amp...and then be able to reset the impedence at the amp to match the overall resistance I;d have when I combined the three speakers: two 10's and one 12, so I wouldn't lose any output power or tone due to a mismatch between the speaker load and the load the amp's output transformer wants to see.

    Lew

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Two speakers that I've tested recently have really knocked my socks off: The Jensen Neo 12 in my '54 wide panel tweed Deluxe, and the Eminence Cannabis Rex in my SF Music Master Bass amp. Both speakers deliver a wonderful rich tone and virtually no breakup, so the tone of the amp contributes to any distortion that occurs. The Cannabis Rex has a very rich mid range, strong lows, and smooths out the highs, so it works especially well in the MMB, but it's a little too loose in the tweed Deluxe. The Neo 12 just lets the Deluxe sing in its natural voice. Both of these speakers increase the volume output of these amps as well, making them gigable in the right cricumstances.

    I also like Weber's speakers, the Jensen P8R reissue, and the Bad Cat Vintage 30 in my Cub II. I did not like the Jensen P12Q RI in my tweed Deulxe or the Vintage 30 in my Orange AD15 -- both sounded too harsh in the high end for my tastes.

  17. #37
    Mojo's Minions Quencho092's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Trust me, mine's a C12k. Fender uses it in the RI twins and the DRRI. It does sound a bit too 'buttery' though.

    Have you ever tried a Weber California, Lew? When it comes to a bigger, cleaner sound, I'm a JBL guy, and it's cheaper than the Vintage 30. I don't know about those Celestions though, they sure are real pricey...I think I'd be happier with an American style Weber for 85 bucks than a celestion for 110...
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  18. #38
    Lewguitar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Quencho092
    Trust me, mine's a C12k. Fender uses it in the RI twins and the DRRI. It does sound a bit too 'buttery' though.

    Have you ever tried a Weber California, Lew? When it comes to a bigger, cleaner sound, I'm a JBL guy, and it's cheaper than the Vintage 30. I don't know about those Celestions though, they sure are real pricey...I think I'd be happier with an American style Weber for 85 bucks than a celestion for 110...
    That's a new number for me (C12K)...I'm more familiar with speakers based on the original 50's and 60's JBL's & Jensens and 60's and early 70's Celestions.

    The Weber Cali is a take off on the 60's JBL D-120. It's less bright and hi-fi sounding with the paper dust cover but it's also available with the aluminum dust cover like JBL used.

    Not really my kind of tone though, so I don't have alot of experience with the Cali.

  19. #39
    Mojo's Minions Quencho092's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    I guess we love the same gear but have slightly different needs. I see what you mean by the g12h30 having a great tone for a deluxe reverb, but I don't want the amp to breakup too soon because I still want to be able to play some jazz and funk tunes clean at higher levels, which is exactly why I think that a JBL style California speaker would do the trick.

    I want the amp to be able to handle all the treble I throw at it so I can cut into a band consisting of 7 saxes, 3 trumpets, a drum line, drum set, and a bass. A ceramic california with an RMS rating of 80 watts would probably do the trick easily, and I have experience with JBL's I'm sure it'll do fine. Thanks for the advice though!
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  20. #40
    PRSlustologist Luke Duke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speakers: my suggestions for the ultimate in tone

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewguitar
    Thanks! Well...I like Celestion 12's and Weber 10's. Are you thinking of combining two 10's with one 12? You'll need to make a decision there about impedence. If all three speakers are 8 ohm you'll have a 2.66 ohm resistance when all three are combined. If you have two 8 ohm 10" speakers (16 ohms combined in series) and then you combined them with a 16 ohm 12, the overall resistance would be 8 ohms...the amp might like that better if it has an 8 ohm out. Or if the amp wants to see a 4 ohm load, you could achieve that with two 16 ohm 10" speakers (8 ohms if combined in parallel) and one 8 ohm 12. Is the speaker impedence switchable at the amp?

    If it was me, I'd want to be able to set the impedence at the amp to match the speakers in the amp...and then be able to reset the impedence at the amp to match the overall resistance I;d have when I combined the three speakers: two 10's and one 12, so I wouldn't lose any output power or tone due to a mismatch between the speaker load and the load the amp's output transformer wants to see.

    Lew
    Right now I'm runnin at 8 Ohms, and the good Dr. said it is wired like a fender extension cab plug, and when you plug in the circuitry drops the impedance to 4 ohms.

    Lew what difference (if any) can you tell between an 8, and 16 ohm speaker, or cab. It seems as if I remember someone saying that 16 ohm speakers sound fuller?

    Luke
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