Likes Likes:  0
Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 132

Thread: it's not about loud...

  1. #81
    Flushologist Scott_F's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Age
    58
    Posts
    22,757

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    I'm not sure where I read this, so if I"m repeating an urban musical legend, someone correct me.

    Doubling the number of speakers normally results in a 3db boost in perceived volume. That is not much. Doubling wattage is supposed to achieve the same 3db increase. So, if that theory holds, then a 30 watt 2x12 ought to be 6db louder than a 15 watt 1x12.

    What's real world experience tell you?


    www.CelticAmplifiers.com

    "You can't save everybody, everybody don't wanna be saved."

  2. #82
    Toneologist
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    923

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    My biggest amp is an old blonde/BF Fender Tremolux 2x10 piggyback at about 35 watts. From there it drops to 15 watts or so with my Bad Cat Cub 1x12 combo and wide panel tweed Fender Deluxe. These amps give me the tone I want with solid low end. Many small amps lack the iron to generate a big sound, but the good ones can do this with ease.

    The real trick from there is to match those amps with the speaker efficiency and speaker configuration that are necessary to develop the volume that you need. I've played several 12-18 watt combo amps with inefficient speakers, and they wouldn't make it out of the bedroom or studio. However, if you install an efficient speaker in them (e.g., a Celestion Vintage 30, Eminence Cannabis Rex, Jensen Neo 12) or plug them into a multi-speaker cab, then you have volume to spare with increased clean headroom. So, I think that the greatest versatility and sonic potential may come from a well-designed 1x12 combo amp at 15 watts or so (lets say 12 to 20 watts, depending on cathode bias, etc.) with an external 2x12 or 4x12 cab to add when you need more volume and/or clean headroom.

  3. #83
    Bengalsologist MikeS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Age
    38
    Posts
    8,852

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott_F
    I'm not sure where I read this, so if I"m repeating an urban musical legend, someone correct me.

    Doubling the number of speakers normally results in a 3db boost in perceived volume. That is not much. Doubling wattage is supposed to achieve the same 3db increase. So, if that theory holds, then a 30 watt 2x12 ought to be 6db louder than a 15 watt 1x12.

    What's real world experience tell you?
    There’s truth to that, Scott, but it’s very loosely based. Theoretically, all other things being equal, doubling the number of speakers without increasing wattage, the increase in volume should be 3db. The same fundamentally holds true for doubling wattage without increasing speaker area. There’s a base db though, and for some reason it escapes me. Doubling the speakers will not get you from 3 db to 6 db. The +/- 3db falls by the wayside without having the base db. However, speaker wattage/perceived volume is never an additive process, so whether or not your little example would theoretically be a 6db increase is doubtful.

    And let’s not forget that there are many many factors beyond wattage that attribute to the final db output of a rig. The “speaker” is comprised of not only the driver, (speaker) which cone areas and materials have a great affect on tone and output, and also the enclosure. In the world of car audio, a properly designed enclosure can be the difference between 140 db and 130 db. Guitar cabinets won’t be as finicky given the different frequency range they operate in, but cabinet design still has a great impact on both tone and perceived volume.

    Also remember that the db scale is not a linear scale, either. It too is exponential. 70 db (average washing machine) is perceptively two times louder than 60 db (average human conversation).

    However, tone is not about volume. When I went amp shopping for my all tube head, I chose to go with 50 watts, thinking it was a good middle-of-the-road wattage and usable both in the studio but in medium sized venues (if I ever get around to that). When it’s too loud, I’ll attenuate it. I beg anyone to do a serious study on attenuators… prove to me that they have a huge effect on tonal quality (without over attenuating). A cranked 100 watt Marshall head will push a 4x12 much harder than an attenuated cranked 100 watt Marshall head. The increased volume of the unattenuated sound will alter the ears perception of tone. Speaker breakup is also different with the attenuated sound. I’m not so sure that the “attenuators affect tone” argument lies any further than the simple fact that speaker breakup is obviously affected by the lower output.
    Duncan Pickups in currently in use: '59 (rewound to PATB-3)/'59, Custom 5/AP2H, Tapped QP set for Tele, Duncan Distortion, SP90-1/SP90-2

  4. #84
    Toneologist RiffRaff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    So. Cal
    Age
    61
    Posts
    728

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey
    awoided it on purpose


    keep your 15 watters... more high wattage amps left for me
    I have to, I'm too old to lug around a head and cabinet!!!!

  5. #85
    Skarekrough
    Guest

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Zombie
    You guys cant tell me you dont enjoy the thump feeling in you bones? I love volume. But then again I wear earplugs when I play live or go to live concerts so it sounds like Im listening to the music on cd and still get the thumping so I guess I dont count.

    I used to enjoy it...and then i realized it was completely unneccesary.

    I find this thread amusing simply because I'm finding clubs that are ditching bands in preference to DJs and karaoke.

    Why?

    Because going out to a bar to see a band is no longer an active sort of sport. Patrons priority are to be able to enjoy each others company, drinks and then you.

    The tired concept of coming in with 100 watt heads and blowing out the venue is sealing the death of live music.

    A 20 watt amp can always be put through a PA. And when you do that with a decent soundguy then you're going to be more effective than any 100 watt head.

  6. #86
    Raging BB Gunologist some_dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    In a van, down by the river.
    Age
    41
    Posts
    6,386

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    It's not that it's to loud.....

    .....it's just that you're too old.


























    P.S. - I own Hotplates for a reason.
    || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

  7. #87
    Toadily Stratologist Guitar Toad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Kansas City Rocks!
    Age
    53
    Posts
    3,480

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Great stuff here.

    I vote yea. This thread is vault worthy.
    Last edited by Guitar Toad; 11-01-2005 at 08:04 AM.
    Success seems to be connected with action. Successful people keep moving. They make mistakes, but they don't quit.
    -Conrad Hilton

  8. #88
    LoveMachineologist jeremy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    albany, ny
    Age
    42
    Posts
    29,117

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelsey
    I think that the greatest versatility and sonic potential may come from a well-designed 1x12 combo amp at 15 watts or so (lets say 12 to 20 watts, depending on cathode bias, etc.) with an external 2x12 or 4x12 cab to add when you need more volume and/or clean headroom.
    thats exactly what i do. i have two really good sounding 15ish watt amps that work great for small clubs and then i add a 2x12 with sensitive speakers for a bigger club. outside gigs are about the only time i can use my bassman

  9. #89
    Skarekrough
    Guest

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by screamingdaisy
    It's not that it's to loud.....

    .....it's just that you're too old.
    Actually, technically it's the crowds that are getting older. The typical bar patrons are getting older and the expectations of what volume the band is to be at has changed since the 70's. Bands are expected to maintain somewhere between jukebox volume and someone yelling.

    You either toe that line or expect not to be asked back.

    P.S. - I own Hotplates for a reason.
    They're nice devices but they alter the sound. If you can live with it then fine. But to me it's a link in the equasion that equals tone.

    Why bother to have a monster-sized amp if you're going to constantly be throttling it down to make it the same volume as a smaller one.

    I really think the high-gain amp companies have missed the boat on smaller amps. Maybe it's the machismo and ****-size comparisons that are inherent in the genres of music that gravitate to them, but making an amp that can work for most rooms and doesn't require two extra trips to the car seems like a product alot of players would be interested in.

  10. #90
    Raging BB Gunologist some_dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    In a van, down by the river.
    Age
    41
    Posts
    6,386

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarekrough
    ****-size comparisons
    That's the problem right there.

    An 18w 5150 just wouldn't sell that well to the crowd they're marketed towards.


    Actually, technically it's the crowds that are getting older. The typical bar patrons are getting older and the expectations of what volume the band is to be at has changed since the 70's. Bands are expected to maintain somewhere between jukebox volume and someone yelling.
    I dissagree.

    The DJ'd clubs that I go to are loud enough that you have to shout at the person next to you. So, the problem isn't the age of the patrons, or the expectations for maintaining a reasonable volume, the problem is that young people don't go to clubs to listen to rock music.

    Most chicks don't care to thrash out in the mosh pit while some dude jerks off his guitar on stage.....

    .....most guys aren't interested in going to clubs that are full of dudes.

    Hip-hop is the new rock and roll, 'cause chicks dig it, and we dig chicks.
    Last edited by some_dude; 11-01-2005 at 02:11 PM.
    || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

  11. #91
    Baron Von Shred Zerberus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Making sure nobody gets back out.
    Posts
    14,859

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S.
    If it's ok with you guys I'll keep my 180 watt tube rack for just a little while longer. Killer tone, huge footprint and it's powerful enough to temporarily sterilize the women in the audience. Comes in handy on those "special" nights.

    Is it heavy, maybe but I won't claim to be old until I've been dead for at least three days.

    What a bunch of girls. Now get back to work and turn it up!
    +1 on all counts
    Zerberus Industries: Where perfection just isn't good enough.

    Listen to my music at http://www.soundclick.com/infiniteending and www.subache.com

  12. #92
    Ultimate Tone Member Peterku's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Hungary
    Posts
    531

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    To add something to the issue of 'loudness', I'm quoting Dynacord:

    As a general rule:
    - a duplication in distance = -6 dB SPL;
    - 10-times the distance = -20 dB SPL;
    - a duplication in power = +3 dB SPL (a small but audible difference);
    - 10-times the power = +10 dB SPL (which is, according to Ben, twice as loud);
    - Every duplication of the number of cabinets results in an increase of the on-axis direct sound by +6 dB. For example if one cabinet produces 131 dB, 2 cabinets produce 137 dB, 4 cabinets 143 dB. 3 cabinets produce 140 dB / 1 m.

    I'm not sure but the latter rule could be valid for the number of speakers, too. So a 4x12" would be 12 dB louder than a 1x12" in terms of SPL, which is a little bit more than twice as loud.
    Last edited by Peterku; 11-02-2005 at 06:55 AM.

  13. #93
    Flushologist Scott_F's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Age
    58
    Posts
    22,757

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    I would believe that a 4x12 would be twice as loud as a 1x12 given the same exact speakers and the same volume setting on the amp.

    It would make a good experiment if I had a decibel meter....


    www.CelticAmplifiers.com

    "You can't save everybody, everybody don't wanna be saved."

  14. #94
    Raging BB Gunologist some_dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    In a van, down by the river.
    Age
    41
    Posts
    6,386

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterku
    - Every duplication of the number of cabinets results in an increase of the on-axis direct sound by +6 dB. For example if one cabinet produces 131 dB, 2 cabinets produce 137 dB, 4 cabinets 143 dB. 3 cabinets produce 140 dB / 1 m.
    To add.....multiple cabs may increase on-axis direct sound by a few db, but spreading multiple cabs out along a stage will dramatically increase the spread due to the reductions if distance factors as listed above.


    Of course....none of this takes into account phase cancellation.
    || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

  15. #95
    Baron Von Shred Zerberus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Making sure nobody gets back out.
    Posts
    14,859

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by screamingdaisy
    To add.....multiple cabs may increase on-axis direct sound by a few db, but spreading multiple cabs out along a stage will dramatically increase the spread due to the reductions if distance factors as listed above.


    Of course....none of this takes into account phase cancellation.
    The reason I prefer 2 2x12s to a 4x12 in many situations
    Zerberus Industries: Where perfection just isn't good enough.

    Listen to my music at http://www.soundclick.com/infiniteending and www.subache.com

  16. #96
    Raging BB Gunologist some_dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    In a van, down by the river.
    Age
    41
    Posts
    6,386

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerberus
    The reason I prefer 2 2x12s to a 4x12 in many situations
    Oddly enough, since switching to a 3/4 stack I've found I've been able to get better tone at a lower overall volume.....partly due to the improved bass responce since now I don't have to drive the speakers so hard to get as much bottom end.

    P.S. - I am a new deciple to the mixing speaker types school of thought.
    || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

  17. #97
    Ultimate Tone Member Jeff Seal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Houston
    Age
    52
    Posts
    546

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    ..my .02....

    I've gigged with the exact same amp for the last 16 yrs. It's a 1989 Marshall 2210 100 watt full stack. I have played at the smallest clubs and in front of 35,000+ with the exact same setup. Never at any gig has the MV on this amp ever been above 3! (and I can assure you that is loud!.... and only twice has it ever been this high) My 100 watt spends most of it's time churning out maybe 30 watts max, usually less than that......

    So why do I lug this "huge" 100w rig around with me.....?

    #1....I rarely use both cabinets, much preferring a single 412 running at 16 ohms, thus utilizing the entire OT windings available at the 16 ohm tap. But, since I'm 6' 5" tall and rarely have a floor monitor at most gigs (nor do I really want or need one at smaller gigs), a bottom Marshall 412 just happens to make a really nice "stand" to prop up a single 412 securely.....and I just use the one cab "active"...

    #2.... to clarify the "numbers"....most 100w Marshall's really push about 180 watts...so my 30 watts I gig with is 1/6th the full potential of this amp.....one might actually deduce this would contribute to tube life expectancy........I only replace El34's about every four years...

    (as a side note)..... "power tube distortion" is a term that's rather "loosely" thrown around..... Marshall Super Leads will push even 6550's into the circuit's (not the tube's!) maximum rating, but very few realize it's not the output tubes that are actually getting the tone, but the phase inverter that's "distorting", which usually explains why Post Phase Inverter Master Volumes (PPIMV) work so well in older Marshall's.... No Marshall ever made has a plate voltage of 600v, which is the max for 6550's.....El34 max is 700v and only MusicMan amps push these this hard...(MM's aren't exactly known for their "rich" fully cranked OD tones, now are they?)

    anyway...#3.....20w out of 100w is simple, 25w out of 20w is impossible...

    FWIW.......

    Jeff Seal
    ..lots and lots of toys!

    "...swords and tequila, carry me through the fight!"

    "I am Phil"....
    www.houstonamprepair.com

  18. #98
    Flushologist Scott_F's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Age
    58
    Posts
    22,757

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    that's a good education. thanks...

    (my mind is like a sponge, sponge bob that is)


    www.CelticAmplifiers.com

    "You can't save everybody, everybody don't wanna be saved."

  19. #99
    Unseen
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Age
    51
    Posts
    23,219

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    Way cool info Jeff, one of our amp tech heads expained the same once, nice to get it refreshed

  20. #100
    Raging BB Gunologist some_dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    In a van, down by the river.
    Age
    41
    Posts
    6,386

    Default Re: it's not about loud...

    I thought phase inverter distortion was a charicteristic of Marshall style amps...

    ...is it the same for other types of amps, Fender/Boogie for instance?

    ...or Soldano style high gain (Rectifier, SLO, Ubershall, ect)?
    || Guitar | Wah | Vibe | Amp ||

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •